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Post by eyecave on Sept 7, 2006 0:35:19 GMT -5
coupla ways you can do it........tandem rappeling iz one way....at least for the guy on top.......weighted ropes, duffels filled with rock and then attached onto the bottom of a long rope iz a bit safer......say,..something like an incredible or a fantastically long type of such.......it also gives one the experience of solving the getting onto a rope you can't budge.............. the big thing you gotta realize iz that you can't move the rope.....you gotta move your body.......and don't lose control of the friction bar things when you do that because IT WILL HAPPEN........(you can actually kinda sorta bend it a little if you use your hips and really try.....friction generates heat and , as everyone knows....it gets easier to move the rope as you go down...less weight....less poundage......at least ON A NON-TETHRD RP)............. what you gotta realize is that you have nothing but the bars between you and death..........throw away your right hand glove.....figrtvly........let it fall......a twisting piroulette........ ................if you use the right spacers and distances.... the rack is therefore fast and predictable enough that you *actually have a bar in reserve* when you are rapping......... and by sliding it up when you have lost control of the next one up at what ever point your define as "uncomfortably fast"...and you immediately regain control..... once control is regained.....at a point later you can add that next lower loose bar ... and drop it all the way down....with the rope between your legs you can control your speed with the bar ABOVE THE ONE YOU JUST CLIPPED IN......(and that you are deliberately are actively keeping at the bottom of the open leg in the least friction possible position..)............then you drop on down to that last 500 feet and the rope weight gets manageable......and that control bar is getting near the full upper compression range....release it......reach down and engage that last bar you clipped in a while ago........immediate control.........right hand off the rope.............finnnnnnish it..... such is the luxury and extent of volatility of control on a rack with spacers........ahhhhwell.......should we let them twist in the wind? first of all i would like to now address if the rope was tethered.....well then you cannot regain any rope manageability at any point!..............indeed....the rope will weigh the exact same amount of force at the top and at also at and during the very last foot.....it will be completely immovable to you......do not forget this fact.... ....think bars and rack position......things can happen in a non perfectly vertical environment with equipment designed for a perfectly vertical environment that are downright dangerous!!.....if you are not very careful with rope and equipment position and management you can/could/might/would/hurt/maim/KILL/embarass yourself rather easily......but.....if you have the rack oriented with the open end up, closely attached to your seat......and you go down the rope somewhat cautiously....and understand how to use the leg of the rack for additional friction and control of dropping the bar...... and can accomplish moving your body from one side of the rope to the other......gasp....maybe even master the use either hand.....easier for a left handed person......you should arrive safely... ............just.....don't get too weird with the bars dude........bdy recvrs sck...... aaaannnnddddd .......YES.......the best way to begin to practice this type of stuff is in a reliable old tree....bridges work....but that might not be something you can do today.......and loading bolts in caves might not be as safe as a tree off a sheer vertical cliff face outside.......by allllll means work in a very safe environment till you feel competent........then go up a level........be sure you don't go up two....just go up one............ ..remember that you are a rookie at this.....and paralysis lasts.......(with stem cells...maybe not forever)........and so remember who usually gets hurt?................rrriiightttt........i first considered this stuff seriously a while ago and realized how carefully it has to be done then....but thor 04 had no intrasquad discussions about slanted raps...why........because i totally forgot about how hard it can be.......i remember cautioning everyone about the climb (which is what i like and consider the challenge on longwallraps) but i don't recall mentioning anything to anyone about rack position on rap.......!!!!!..... ....remember all of this...the series of mistakes that lead to disaster.........that is a lesson for all of you and the main one for me!.................... ...and then when you master that next level or task in your vertical skills you then go on up.........why be in a hurry anyway?.....you know or you will learn that eventually you will get to where you will have to again search for a challenge within what you are doing...........or... even the next one..............) ...
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Post by Dee on Sept 8, 2006 13:22:19 GMT -5
According to Wikipedia and other online sources Mount Thor is the earth's greatest vertical drop at 4,100 feet. Would anyone care to discuss how it is possible that caver's rappelled a reported 4,200 feet ?
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Post by cavewiggle on Sept 8, 2006 17:44:03 GMT -5
It probably took another 100 feet of rope to stretch it out away from the mountain so it would be a free drop. That is my guess.
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Post by Dee on Sept 8, 2006 19:41:29 GMT -5
Would that still qualify as a natural vertical rappel?
When they pull the rope away from the mountain is that what is meant by the J rappel?
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 8, 2006 23:40:49 GMT -5
We used the entire "free drop" at Thor in '82 (3325'). Maybe 20' max could be had by moving rig. However, you do have a long talus slope with some slab thrown in below. So the only way one can get a "longer rappel" is to resort to pulling the rope out from the base, what I would refer to as a highline. I will say that if this interpretation stands then many drops as we know them could be lengthened. Some maybe many times over! Me....I think it's just an inner ear problem....you know ...balance and which way is up type stuff! ;D kent
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Brian Roebuck
Site Admin
Caver
Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
Posts: 2,732
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Sept 10, 2006 7:20:08 GMT -5
If one could measure the local gravity vector (ie: which way is straight up) then the real answer of which way is up could be obtained. Gravity is not constant everywhere so this is a valid (but nit picky) point. So who is going to be the first to rappel a mile plus from a hot air balloon? Just float up, tie the rope off on the ground somwhere, and rap down (straight down if the wind is light enough). Beware the variable stretching load in the rope due to the changes in bouyancy of the balloon and the effects of air currents on the balloon though! That would be challenging! ;D It may well be safer to rappel to a hanging knot and climb back into the balloon - or if you are high enough off the ground rappel off the end and parachute to the ground. A new sport "Balloon Rapparachuting" has been born! You first... There is even an idea to put a satellite into geosynchronus orbit (stays in one spot over the ground) with a thin strong cable tied off to the ground. This would be used for transporting stuff into space really slow but really cheap. It also has energy producing capability due to differences in electrical potential at each end. I can see it now; some stow-away caver in a space suit rappelling down the cable 22,000 miles. What a ride!
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Post by eyecave on Sept 10, 2006 21:06:50 GMT -5
this business of ascentaining the length is a question i asked dirk some days ago....i asked if the vertical relief was 4200 feet or the rope was 4200 feet long........which was it?......i got no answer yet........
i am glad someone else brought it up........before this point of meaninglessconfusion was reached i asked a long time ago if we should consider the vertical relief distance the length of the rap or the length of the rope.......well......anyone can easily see that unless you consider vertical relief as the barometer it can get out of hand....and instead of a j rappel you have a highline or tyrolean situation developing...........
folks.....the whole damn reason i came up with the idea was to infuse enthusiasm on multiple levels into the reason we wanted to do thor04.......the real reason was to do the rap....but......we had to have a goal....a new meaning of vertical work.....something to shakeup the sport.........hell.....it worked..not for me..but it sorta worked.............
j rappels are not meant to be a highline.......all you had to do at thor 82 to beat the world record was simply continue your rap down the walkable but slanted vertical scree slope we landed on and you could beat the world record!!!....that vertical slope continues another 1000+ feet.......
dee.......you're back.....stirring the pot it seems.......thor is nearly five thousand feet from the river water surface to the top of the highest rock at thor........the elevation from the river to the beginning of the scree slope that leads up to the wall, eventually, IS NOT 900 feet......it probabably is less than 400.....i have hiked that hike at least 10 times....your source saying the mountain is 4100 feet is something you misread or is wrong......or better yet go get a topo..........
if the rope were strung straight down from where we landed in 82 you could get a slanted j rap, most of it vertical,..........the first part would be over scree boulders, then.... about 25% of the vertical way down... the rock becomes so steep that boulders tumble to the valley and don't hang up.......the wall and rock is essentially slick and very steep..... that total distance from the lip to the place where the mountain levels out would have a vertical relief change of 45 to 48 hundred feet!.........the rope would be longer and the rap would be longer........(using thor 06 standards the rap would go up to 5000+ easily).........that was what excited me when considering this in inventing a stunt to elevate the tempo of thor 04........
i believe that thor 06 probably did not increase the vertical distance from thor 82 by more than 200 feet.........400 at the most.......
i know how the vertical distance can be ascertained......i know......last time, 04, there was a claim made for highest tandem rap...that claim was made from the very same bolt the rope at 06 was anchored to.....
......anybody have a record of that past world record tandem rappel claim?...find out that distance (from the pst records or a current 06 or past 04 member.....subtract that plus 3 hundred more from 5000 and you end up with the conservative rap distance of thor06........heheheheh.....)
i would like to apologize for the multiple corrections..........i have a problem writing things down......i can say them;.....but i have a problem writing them down for others to read.....i can't remember what i learned and...well..........it is best to wait at leaast two hours after you see me post something.......for a coupla hours i will go back to it, reread it, and realize that it doesn't say what i meant for it to say..and i will repost it over and over.........sorry......accident in 82'.....i usually correct all my errors within the first two hours......
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Post by madratdan on Sept 11, 2006 9:35:14 GMT -5
Personally, I'd measure the rope....................besides.....................what's a little rope stretch among friends. I'd also say the record should be measured by vertical relief, not rope length. If they were repelling down something like a steel cable with no stretch, then maybe...............but even steel cable stretches over distance.
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Post by eyecave on Sept 11, 2006 21:02:48 GMT -5
vertical relief is the only thing that makes sense........el cap can't be lengthened.....but.....the rap at half dome!....what did we decide that distance was kent.....14 or 16 hundred?.........hmmmmmm, now that one could be lengthened!!. .......so....if a vertical relief that exceeds the natural rap exists and is proximate enough....the streams at thor and elcap limit the extra vertical relief available....is that where a j rap stops, or ends, and a tyrolean begins?......i think so......maybe eeven shortly before that point!.... also personally i would like to say that i think a real man would not use any arresting devices on a tyrolean or highline. except his gloves....... ....though....i hate to say this.. ...it is possible that that horrid rope destroying device called the "squeeze brake" would work ideally in some form, as a tyrolean brake... ..******i can see fins like on a radiator*******..... the problem with the device is that it involves a concept that compresses nylon laterally to develop the friction to control a rappel....strands of nylon are not designed to be stressed laterally (by being squeezed)......so, this weakens the strands because it damages them physically..........in a tyrolean situation or high line situation the friction might not have to be developed to the same degree.........so it is highly possible that some design of a squeezing type of appratus might prove to be the best!......you wouldn't have to add bars or worry about rope position for a coupla advantages........GET TO WORK OUT THERE.......
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Post by madratdan on Sept 12, 2006 8:54:25 GMT -5
Hummmm, never seard of a squeeze brake. Do you know of a picture of one?
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Post by Crawldady on Sept 12, 2006 12:22:05 GMT -5
So who is going to be the first to rappel a mile plus from a hot air balloon? Just float up, tie the rope off on the ground somwhere, and rap down (straight down if the wind is light enough). Beware the variable stretching load in the rope due to the changes in bouyancy of the balloon and the effects of air currents on the balloon though! That would be challenging! ;D It may well be safer to rappel to a hanging knot and climb back into the balloon - or if you are high enough off the ground rappel off the end and parachute to the ground. A new sport "Balloon Rapparachuting" has been born! You first... T Funny you should mention that Dr Beaner. About three years ago, I had a lengthy conversation with a French guy that told me about when he and a couple of friends designed a liquid-cooled rack and did a 2,000 meter rap out of a hot air baloon in France. Apparently, it was partially sponsored by a BIG French equipment company. Am I the only one here that has heard this?
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 12, 2006 17:48:56 GMT -5
Sara Corrie could tell you about squeeze brakes if she was still around. Marmex (trade name) made one that Smokey tried in the superdome. It gave him a nasty third degree burn from a slow descent. They are IMHO VERY dangerous and the icing is that they also damage rope! "Liquid cooled rack" ;D ;D ;D I have personally seen some yankees hosing their racks down at New river! LOL!! kent
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Post by eyecave on Sept 12, 2006 23:35:15 GMT -5
kent....thats what i meant by the crack about the fins on a radiator......some type of squeeze design that can dissapate heat and not damage the rope!.........i stopped using the thor 82 rope after 15 years or so because of concerns about the loss of strength mcgreagors deeeeevice (that tommy almost threw him off the cliff because of)......caused..........as a constant reminder i've got 1300 feet of rope underneath my bed i can't use without serious fears because of that damnable squeeze thingy.......i ain't no supporter of it........
i am saying that something that using a non -bar thingy might be the ticket to slanted or..tyroleans......raps of that nature need a device to have a good high speed controllable safe rap..........bars are awkward and the regular rack is awkward in the slanted rap.......i am saying that meebeeee a friction device of some design that only requires that you tighten it up might be easier to manage in such a sit.......it also might not work without some unacceptable comprimises because of the physics....anybody got an idea?....i don't....i am just gonna keep my open end up and go slowly........
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 13, 2006 0:24:25 GMT -5
mcgreagors deeeeevice (that tommy almost threw him off the cliff because of). Ahhh the memories!! ;D ;D ;D Check with the N. Ga.Redneck. Smokey's got a device he's used before on highlines. kent BTW, I was figuring about 1800' off the diving board on Half Dome
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Post by eyecave on Sept 13, 2006 0:24:58 GMT -5
rapping outta balloons?!........hmmmmmm.........here it is obvious that the length of rope that had passed thru your rack upon and prior to your eventual impact with the ground is the distance of the rap........forget stationary.........forget predictable.....(other than the rope used stuff).............go for it.................. :owhoa....talk about exposure :Dmy dear friend...... :Dexposure ;D.......yeah......i love it...........hmmmmmmmm ... ...it brings me joy to think of it..... figure that some frenchman would do that first.. ....yep......only problem dear buddy is IT DIDN'T COUNT..... ......you did not climb the same distance........you lose..............climb it punk............. .......i mean, what the heck is the problem!!.......it ain't like you couldn't take the rope up higher than you needed to or anything to make it eazzzzzzyyyyyy to climb the same distance...it ain't like you didn't have the time that day to do it.....i mean....what the heck is the problems frenchie? ?........
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 13, 2006 0:29:49 GMT -5
Dan, we need a C-130. Rap out the back , would maybe be a little windy!
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Post by eyecave on Sept 13, 2006 0:37:33 GMT -5
eighteeeeeeen hundred...........damn kent.......i think that sounds right...............yeee haw.......remember that melting ice that was falling all during our climb?.....yeeeeeeeeeehaw.............virgin big wall!....damn...can't be beat..........cept maybe by a virgin cave................
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Post by eyecave on Sept 13, 2006 0:40:13 GMT -5
rapping outta the back of a C-130.....wow.......cool...............................but................200 mph winds.....damn.....that might be more than i can do!....i mean........i could do the rap and exit off the NON KNOTTED END OF THE ROPE, NOT TOO FAR DOWN.........but.................i don't know about that climb......seems to me that you would twist and spin too much fer my stomach.......and that force generated by the passing wind......it would rip and try to blister your hand as you tried to control way more weight than you were used to you weighing........... and then strain your legs as each cycle brought violent twists and dives of your body.......good lord.....i would throw up, change over..... or better..throw up...and..just pull out the knife, sever the rope and pull the ripcord..........
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 13, 2006 0:46:45 GMT -5
What's the stall speed of a C-130 Hercules.....anyone?? Now that you mention it ......I do remember that ice!! The Horror!!
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Post by eyecave on Sept 13, 2006 0:56:24 GMT -5
they have a top speed of 384 mph......they cruise at around 300.........they slow down and i think parachutists exit at 200 or less mph.... ...
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Post by eyecave on Sept 13, 2006 0:58:56 GMT -5
....four ways?...wrld rcrd .....bah humbug........anybody?..... ..... ....
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Brian Roebuck
Site Admin
Caver
Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
Posts: 2,732
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Sept 13, 2006 5:29:57 GMT -5
What's the stall speed of a C-130 Hercules.....anyone?? Now that you mention it ......I do remember that ice!! The Horror!! According to this site [ www.gurpsmaster.de/c130.htm ] the stall speed is 100 mph which sounds about right for a short field operation aircraft. If you want slow speed to cruise around while you rappel and climb world record rope lengths rent the Goodyear Blimp and use it! ;D
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