L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
|
Post by L Roebuck on Jan 10, 2007 11:18:42 GMT -5
O.R., Philip's families wishes should be held as a top priority, in my opinion. No problems with your respect for them. Also for those who might be interested there are a couple of very nice Memorials to Philip on the Internet. May he rest in peace.....
|
|
|
Post by Off Rope on Jan 11, 2007 8:27:51 GMT -5
Lynn,
Thank you for those kind and thoughtful sentiments. His family has certainly sufferred enough. If you know of any stories/memorials regarding the late Mr. Robinson not previously noted on this forum, I would appreciate viewing them and humbly ask that you post links to them here.
In memory of Philip. May he rest in peace.
|
|
L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
|
Post by L Roebuck on Jan 11, 2007 9:18:47 GMT -5
|
|
L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
|
Post by L Roebuck on Jan 11, 2007 12:23:50 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Off Rope on Jan 12, 2007 8:22:21 GMT -5
Lynn,
How can I express my appreciation for the links? The articles brought both tears and smiles to my face.
I will never forget Phillip.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jan 12, 2007 8:26:06 GMT -5
phil robinson was my cousin, we are still waiting for answers regarding his death, we know he fell while rappeling down the face of thor,so far it is looking like he had problems with the rappeling rig ,i dont know anything about the gear he was using , he fell app. 6000feet landed still attached to the rope sitting up ,quite dead,. he was very skilled in this sport ,we are all wondering what happened, can somone explain to me how this gear works,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,mike
|
|
L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
|
Post by L Roebuck on Jan 12, 2007 9:10:26 GMT -5
Mike, please let me extend my sincere condolences to the family of Philip Robinson. I am not skilled on big wall rappel nor the long rack so it would be wise if some one more knowledgeable might explain about the gear if they choose to.
|
|
|
Post by madratdan on Jan 13, 2007 10:42:26 GMT -5
Welcome to the discussion board Mike. I too, extend my sincere condolences to the family and friends of Philip Robinson. I believe the repelling distance was around 4200', which is still one heck of a long way. I take it you want a discription of how a rack works? If so, I suggest you start a new thread. I am not the most vertical skilled person, but I'll try to find some links on rack usage for you. By the way, Lynn. Great links.....thanks for posting them. (Edit to add this link) Here is a link with some pictures that show a rack in use. wobey.net/TSG/tristate/articles/onRope/onRope1.shtml
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Jan 13, 2007 14:33:29 GMT -5
[phil robinson was my cousin, we are still waiting for answers regarding his death, we know he fell while rappeling down the face of thor,so far it is looking like he had problems with the rappeling rig ,i dont know anything about the gear he was using , he fell app. 6000feet landed still attached to the rope sitting up ,quite dead,. he was very skilled in this sport ,we are all wondering what happened, can somone explain to me how this gear works,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,mike] Mike, you have my condolences regarding your cousin's death on Mt. Thor. TAG cavers have been waiting for more detailed accounting of the Thor accident but have been met with stalling tactics, declarations of 'it's not your business', 'it's not TAG caving related' and other methods of delay and denial. Maybe now that a relative is asking questions someone will get more complete answers. Mr. Robinson may have been a very accomplished climber but I would venture that he had very little knowledge of SRT. He was NOT skilled in SRT. I talked to a team member who said Philip had done some rappelling on an ATC but had not used a rack before. I got the feeling that this person saw little difference in rappelling with an ATC and rappelling with a rack. Their opinion was that Philip had suffered a heart attack or something that rendered him unable to respond during rappel. If this is indeed the case then an autopsy would possible reveal this. It appears that at least most of the Thor group do not really want to analyze the accident and just want to forget and put it behind them. Many cavers are interested in trying to understand all that occurred during Philip's rappel in the name of prevention. The Thor folks just want people to stop harshing their trip and remember that they broke a record, when in reality, the only thing that got broke is Philip. (the record they were trying to break is in the area of 6000 feet.) I hope you get some clear answers regarding Thor '06 but I would not hold my breath if I were you. Kent
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jan 13, 2007 14:44:44 GMT -5
thanks very much ,im going to be talking with phils sister,she has just past the bar, and needless to say after all this ,.i will post again when we find anything new ,,,,,,,,,,,mike
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Jan 13, 2007 20:43:06 GMT -5
Mike, I think there are some lessons to be learned here but I don't think any culpability can be assigned in this situation unless the major portion be put on Philip. He chose to use an unfamiliar descent device (rack) and something happened during descent that allowed for an uncontrolled rappel. As one of the Thor '06 people stated to me, he could have had a heart attack. That would certainly account for the uncontrolled part. He could have experienced harness hang poisoning. I would think that with the observances of the Thor people top and bottom and subsequent autopsy to help determine condition during descent that a fairly conclusive assessment of what occurred could be had. Philip chose the path so it was in his court more than anyone else. I have stated before and I'll say again, rock climbers generally know very little of SRT and continually discount the dangers to the point of blindness. I say this because I rock climb and I see it frequently. There is inherent danger in SRT and rock climbing and this danger is magnified when attempting record rappels. The only way one can be sure of not expiring on rope is to never get on it. Kent
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jan 14, 2007 18:32:42 GMT -5
anyone who decides to walk off the sheer side of thor ,very definetly knows whats up,or down,. what do you mean by srt, you can live more in 5 min @200 mph than most people can live in 2 lives,. knowing your gear is another days grace,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,peace
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Jan 14, 2007 19:35:03 GMT -5
Not trying to slander anyone. Philip had apparently never used a rack before. Thor is NOT the place to start.
SRT.......single rope technique I hear ya on that 5 min @ 200 thing! Me, I'm the conservative, boring type. ;D
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jan 15, 2007 7:30:01 GMT -5
yes i believe your right,phil just had to try it,no stopping him ,. from my veiw ,it seems the gear is very poorly designed,. i would not trust my life to a few cheap peices of metal, if i were to start climbing and using ropes ,i think i would design and make a device i know would not fail under any circumstance,. i guess it doesnt matter in the end accidents are just that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
|
|
|
Post by Azurerana on Jan 15, 2007 21:02:16 GMT -5
yes i believe your right,phil just had to try it,no stopping him ,. from my veiw ,it seems the gear is very poorly designed,. i would not trust my life to a few cheap peices of metal, if i were to start climbing and using ropes ,i think i would design and make a device i know would not fail under any circumstance. Actually, a rack, properly threaded with rope, is not poorly designed, compared to most devices which preceeded it. It does require its user to be conscious and to have an idea how to use it. It is infinitely more controllable than many other such devices. The rope itself helps to hold the rack bars closed when properly attached. This is not the case with a Stop, which will stop (as its name implies) unless actively held open, and therefore provides a fair amount of safety as long as the user does not panic and grip the Stop, thereby opening it and ensuring a fall. There likely is no device which will inerrantly save a human if they have gone into panic. There is also no such device which will never fail under any circumstance. At least not one designed by fallible humans, and I am not expecting any soon. Incidence of rack failure (where it is the rack itself which is the weak link-- not the user, not the rope, not the carabiner/mallion, not an error in technique) is quite low. My condolences on your loss, but ropework involves risk, and the risk increases with the length of the rappel/abseil or climb. I'm sure if you come up with a never failing ropework assistance device, you could become quite wealthy by its manufacture. Azurerana
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jan 16, 2007 9:40:20 GMT -5
i agree 100%,. i do not know anything about the gear you guys use ,just from some pics ive seen,. it seems strange to me ,to be out ,hanging off some huge rock without some type of back up,perhaps some sort of parachute,like i say i have no idea about your gear,. aftre all we're not lawn bowling here are we,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,cheers
|
|
|
Post by Off Rope on Jan 17, 2007 16:53:21 GMT -5
Kent,
I've told you time and time again that I am the only member of team thor who reads these posts and has the ability to reply.
To say that the entire team does not want to analyze the accident is pure BS. In fact, let me repeat IN FACT, we participated in lengthy interviews, a freakin body recovery for God's sake, and accident reconstruction scenario's, prior to leaving Baffin.
You aint got a clue, so lay off.
Don't you think any one of us wouldn't give our right arm to know what happened and would do our utmost to spread the word in the name of prevention? Do you really think anyone of us wants someone else to die? We are not prima donna's so stop making it seem like we are.
And to imply that all we are concerned about is a freaking record insults the integrity of everyone on the team and I am personally offended by it.
There was something else broken that day, our hearts.
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Jan 17, 2007 21:13:57 GMT -5
"I've told you time and time again that I am the only member of team thor who reads these posts and has the ability to reply." Hmmm, I read all of your posts and can not find one word stating as such. Ya can always edit! Where are my waders? Rebel
|
|
Kelly
Beginner
Posts: 129
|
Post by Kelly on Jan 18, 2007 8:05:45 GMT -5
Michael,
There actually are devices that some people use in conjunction with rappeling racks as back up to stop you in emergencies. I've never used any of these things, but maybe someone else could explain how they work... ahem... Tim...? And I too would be curious to hear thoughts of people who have used them on big drops as to if they work? If they have ever stoped an out-of-control rappel? Etc.
|
|
|
Post by Off Rope on Jan 18, 2007 8:40:51 GMT -5
The device I am most familiar with is the spelean shunt. The late JV Van Swearingen, may he rest in peace, always wore one, although he never needed it.
The Spelean Shunt is improvised in the field by attaching a carabiner through the eye of a non-spring-loaded Gibbs Ascender. Webbing connects the eye to the seat harness. The shunt rides above the rappel device, and ideally the weight of the carabiner keeps the cam open. When a person gets out of control, the extra drag on the ascender supposedly overcomes the weight of the carabiner, and the cam locks.
In our situation, I'm not sure even if that would have helped. If Philip lost control due to harness hang syndrome all it (the shunt) would do is stop him from continuing down the rope, He still would have been unable to climb back up the rope or continue his descent in a controlled manner. He still might have died. It would have required a pick off that may not have been possible.
|
|
|
Post by Tim White on Jan 18, 2007 11:21:52 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Sharon Faulkner on Jan 18, 2007 17:17:30 GMT -5
I started a new thread on the spelean shunt at: [a href="http://nssmembersforum.proboards28.com/index.cgi?board=Business&action=display&thread=1169137169"]http://nssmembersforum.proboards28.com/index.cgi?board=Business&action=display&thread=1169137169 [/size][/a][/quote] Thanks for creating a thread about the shunt in the Vertical Caving section Tim! I have no problem with anyone who wishes to continue discussing Mount Thor and related issues in this thread or by creating a new thread, but lets try to post caving gear discussion topics into the Vertical Caving section. There may be cavers who are interested in vertical caving issues, but not the Thor debate (yeah, I know that's hard to imagine ;D). Anyway, this thread has become increasingly difficult the follow (the missing posts and such). ;D
|
|