L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
|
Post by L Roebuck on Sept 1, 2006 10:43:29 GMT -5
Yet another good post, IMHO! Thanks Kelly ;D
|
|
|
Post by cavewiggle on Sept 1, 2006 18:24:03 GMT -5
If that is the attempt to initiated a game it is doubtful I will play "The 20 Questions Game".
Thank you for your response. It was not meant to be an attempt to initiate a game. It was a hint meant for some 'particular' people that actually want the truth about the accident. Regardless of whether some people want to quit talking about this all together on this forum or not, there are others that don't, and the caving community has the right to know if the Thor team was in any way at fault in the ranger's death. If they were not...that is great and let's all rejoice!.........but if they were, there are some that will have issues with that. And I personally feel that the facts have been 'danced' around a bit, and that would tend to make one think twice. If there is nothing to hide, then tell all........then folks might shut up about it.
|
|
|
Post by hohum on Sept 1, 2006 19:51:28 GMT -5
Uh-oh, is it too late to ask the right questions? I have a few – serious ones, although I love grits, buttermilk too - mmmmm a big glass with broken up cornbread – better than a strawberry milkshake and no, Jefferson Davis was not one of my ancestors but my great-great-grandfather fought, and died, working for him.
Lisa (cavers wife for those who don’t know), since your husband Ken, doesn’t read this blog, can you enlighten us on who is the guy in the images you posted?
Wow, I had to go back and reread this thread to see just where it fell apart. I think I missed a whole page the first time, it’s a very good read.
Kent, I agree with you about the spacers – there have been discussions aplenty elsewhere deciding the virtues of them. As I recall, it was the general consensus that they were at least a factor in the death at El Cap. I’ve never used them nor really needed ‘em.
Dan, since you were on the ’04 trip, or maybe Dirk since you were on both recent ones, what is the general feeling about using spacers these days on long rappels?
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Sept 1, 2006 22:33:39 GMT -5
well,...i have been doing long wall raps since 78....thor 82 and 04....and it is my feelings that spacers are a part of any rack......i think that spacers the width of your usually used rope will make your rack predictable in normal cave rappeling.....on long drops i use spacers so that i don't have to adjust the bars as much as using no spacers would make you do........also, without spacers you end up using fewer bars and open the door for accidental loss of control of rap due to that.........i mean, you got 8 bars and usually never go over needing six even with spacers......
when you don't use spacers on a long drop you will probably start with 4 bars.....get your body on the wrong side of the rack by shifting your weight to do something and suddenly the heavy as heck rope will shift its weight off that last bar, it drops......and suddenly you are on three bars....hope you can remember to push it up......and if you picked up speed....be able to add a bar without being stationary...........i'm sorry.....but i think its safer to use spacers on a rack......it makes my raps slower and more predictable.....or faster and more predictable........
i agree that it is safer to not use spacers........except for the dropped bar shifting weight thing on the heavy rope.....
the death at el cap was not caused by spacers.....it was caused by training that was incorrect.......for years the anti spacer idiots have used his rap as the whipping boy of those of us careless enough to like spacers influence on RACK CONTROLLABILITY.....
....check out the forum on this site with a survey in it..IT IS IN THE VERTICAL SECTION...........i talk about this very subject.............the rope and the facts bear this out........the guy had grooves in his hand because he was trying to apply primary friction control with his gloved hand and hip friction instead of primary friction via bar position and number...........
i was trained by the same methods that trained this guy......and i was trained wrong!.......read the other postings to this same site in the vertical section....it mentions a survey.......
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Sept 1, 2006 22:51:19 GMT -5
on the subject of philip robinson's death......
i have posted a lot about this subject......but i devoted only one sentence where i stated what i would have done given the situation.....i would have simply made certain that he was trained and that he knew what differences he would have faced.......human life is very fragile.......
i have tried to dissect the probable reason he lost control.....i believe it to be the inability to add bars....and his inexperience with a weighty rope..........see, even at the bottom of the rope with only say 600 feet of distance left, the rope was tethered.........it was a j rap........he may have purposefully gone fast and too late discovered he still couldn't lift it up to stop or do anything else with the rope.......if that was why he cratered...well....his focus should have been on the rack...the rack and the bars were his only hope........by speculating about these situations this sort of knowledge is spread because people want to read about it and assimilate this knowledge via that process...........
also, during this speculation i realized that by examining his left and right hand gloves my theory could be approved or disapproved.......
if only one caver..........or two rock climber's..saves themselves from breaking anything, because it heard something during this discussion,.......and i will even go so far as to say that even if they become one of those guys who refuses to use spacers because they feel threatened...and ends up arguing with me about it publicaleee...................then it was worth it for me to have speculated..........
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Sept 2, 2006 0:39:53 GMT -5
concerning the emotional aspects and garbage that attends such an event as the maxed out thor 06....... it is uncommon that a person experiences the highest and lowest of whatever within a proximate time frame.......however....it is not rare.............things like setting a world record and having a death occur somewhere else or because of or due to........is not rare.....think of the first to sail around the globe to far away places....did friends die during the trip?.....sure.......would they be alive today if they had not met you or gone on that trip because of you?.......probably.............. this has happened more than once before now.......... people die for a reason......they die because of a rather large number of reasons........in high risk situations they can die because of a larger number of reasons than those while sitting on their sofa.......... if i could hold his gloves for less than one minute.....and i could view andfeel the friction wear on the inside and outside of each and every part of each finger on each hand......then i could tell you what he was or was not doing that i would have been doing...........or would have never! been doing..at that point in the rappel.....i can't do that....pure beaucracy stands in my way...........the internet.....you....are my only outlet of choice....sigh...... danger is not always recognizable......danger can occur due to a number of things......it can be because of chance......it can occur because of design if murder is the objective........one cannot recognize either of these situations with complete reliability................. what i want you to get out of this is that a person cannot always recognize when they are endangered.......... when a death occurs via any activity related to normal caving stuff it can be a useful thing........i realize that this is rather morbid....but; nonetheless it remains true........ . by recreating the situation the living cavrs can recognize the mistaKE PATH THE DECEASED FOLLOWED.............. body recoveries suck...........i never did one that i don't remember visual images that i would sincerely like to be hypnotized and zapped in this life for......the death of ranger robinson and his personality create the crux of the j ustifiable emotions and the justificable reason behind the justificable rantings and justificalble. ravings of some members of this site.....everyone is right because everyone is right......... i would gently add that some of what the people who feel most persucuted feel may be totally due to things they DO NOT HEAR OR READ ON THIS SITE......BUT......is partly due to things they hear or see or read outside of this site.....i would simply ask that those who expressed the most sincere objections simply read the accussatory perpetrators and ask if they are the only source of the negative stuff........ finally.............guys.....somebody died....... .....the world is weird about that.........well....its weird unless it is mass stuff or politically correct murder.....or...........
|
|
|
Post by Karstscience on Sept 2, 2006 16:01:07 GMT -5
I think that unfortunately this discussion has taken a turn down the wrong path. This started at first as a discussion about the trip itself, the technical aspects of such a rappel, and so forth. After the tragedy became public knowledge, it has taken the focus off of the rest of the trip. This is natural and expected - of course people's innate curiosities will present themselves in such a situation. Of course people want to know what really happened. Of course people are asking all kinds of questions and want answers. But the bottom line is not one person on this forum should expect to have the RIGHT to know all the answers. *Especially when it is highly likely that some questions will never be answered, even for the team members themselves.* You can all ask as many questions as you want - I agree that each person has the right to post opinions and discuss whatever comes of those posts. That is the whole purpose of this forum. Unfortunately it is natural to upset or anger people - this is what happens when discussing something that is so deeply personal to some. We are humans and emotional creatures. Please, everyone, just remember to respect the team members, their families, and most of all, Philip Robinson and his family and friends. If the team wishes to not discuss or answer any questions, so be it. But please be aware that speculation and statements without facts can feed people’s curiosity and sometimes fury, and therefore will create a flame-war that can very soon get out of hand. I believe that if you wish to discuss the Thor expedition, the topic should turn back to the trip itself and not myspace, grits (which was actually funny…thanks for lightening the mood), or people’s theories. I’m sure if any of you know the team members personally you will have your chance at some point to ask them any questions you want - and they will either answer them or they won’t. But I don’t see that anything is being gained by this discussion in its present format. If you read about any great expedition, whether mountaineering, climbing, or whatever – most of them have their fair share of tragedy combined with triumph. And this trip was no exception. I am asking you all to please understand this basic fact and turn your attention back to the rest of the expedition if you should all decide that this is still a topic worth discussing. Thank you. Cavebangor: While this discussion may have unfortunately taken a wrong turn, it is even more unfortunate that the Thor expedition took a wrong turn. A discussion of the technical aspects of the trip, setting a new world record and such would have all been well and good if the trip had not produced a rappelling fatality. After the ranger's death however, the focus of the trip shifted considerably, as it should have. The caving community does have a right to expect to have the known facts surrounding the rappelling fatality available. What's done is done. We now need to focus on what went wrong; if Robinson lost control, when did he lose control, and why did he lose control? Was human error, equipment malfunction, or poor judgment involved? What gear did Robinson use, his own, or borrowed from someone on the team? How much rappelling experience did Robinson have? Any experience rappelling over 100 feet, 500 feet, 1000 feet? How many bars were still in place upon impact or when someone from the team reached him? Were there rope burns on his hands? Were there spacers on the rack he was using? We can learn from the answers to these and other questions, perhaps preventing future rappelling fatalities and the associated trauma experienced by Thor members. Why do you believe it is natural for Thor members to be upset or angry when faced with questions regarding Robinson's death? Cavebangor, please be aware that when cavers are involved in a rappelling fatality the absence of facts, or intentionally vague statements given by team representatives, will lead to speculation. Agreed, speculation and statements without facts can get out of hand. If you do not want speculation within the caving community, give them the facts to work with. If team Thor does not want to distribute facts, so be it, but allow the rest of the caving community to speculate without the interference of yourself or insults from caver's wife. The death of Philip Robinson will be a topic worthy of discussion until the questions are answered. If the topic were not worthy of discussion you would not be here trying to direct cavers to discuss the trip rather than the fatality.
|
|
|
Post by caveturtle on Sept 3, 2006 7:32:00 GMT -5
I am very happy that Team Thor reached a goal important to THEM and applaud their efforts. However, many people find other things in life a heck of a lot more meaningful that setting records or having bragging rights, Caver's Wife. Is nobody else horrified at the talk of book deals and bragging rights when someone died simply because someone(s) on the team was/ were unable to say "No" to a man that lacked the skills needed to be on rope? A senseless death sort of takes off the shine. Does anyone else wonder if all of these pages of posts, websites with hundreds of copyrighted photographs, and the announcement of a book deal about the trip may end up being used against the team should the ranger's family decide to sue them and the park service? Seems risky to me! I'm also left wondering too if the book profits will go to the ranger's family? It should be interesting to see how this all plays out, but hope that everyone stops the bickering! )
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 4, 2006 20:04:47 GMT -5
".on long drops i use spacers so that i don't have to adjust the bars as much as using no spacers would make you do." Huh??? ".......also, without spacers you end up using fewer bars and open the door for accidental loss of control of rap due to that.........i mean, you got 8 bars and usually never go over needing six even with spacers......" The sixth bar on my rack is for lock off or carrying loads, thats all it gets used for. Never had a use for an 8 bar rack. "when you don't use spacers on a long drop you will probably start with 4 bars.....get your body on the wrong side of the rack by shifting your weight to do something and suddenly the heavy as heck rope will shift its weight off that last bar, it drops......and suddenly you are on three bars....hope you can remember to push it up....." I'm betting when one is in a 'death dive' one will NOT have to be told to push up the bars. I'm betting that they would try that and virtually everything else they can think of to slow descent. The out of control descent from El Cap was sustained by spacers. Again, 4 bars at top of cliff and 4 bars upon arrival at base and he would have regained control especially after impacting and losing consciousness at about 1000' above base. "the death at el cap was not caused by spacers.....it was caused by training that was incorrect..." So, you are saying he held his rack open all the way to impact? I'm not buying it. "...for years the anti spacer idiots have used his rap as the whipping boy of those of us careless enough to like spacers influence on RACK CONTROLLABILITY....." Anti spacer idiots. ;D "....check out the forum on this site with a survey in it..IT IS IN THE VERTICAL SECTION...........i talk about this very subject.............the rope and the facts bear this out........the guy had grooves in his hand because he was trying to apply primary friction control with his gloved hand and hip friction instead of primary friction via bar position and number..........." How do you know he was not pushing bars up too! In my humble opinion he was trying EVERYTHING up to and including pushing up on bars, leg wraps(which evidently he could not achieve) and grooving his hands. He could not stop due to 4 bar configure AND spacers. Take away spacers ....he would stop. Oh and the Willie Wallace I was referring to was executed in the 17th century and was from no where near Ala. ;D kent
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 4, 2006 20:33:30 GMT -5
Discussion is good. Sometimes even spirited discussion is good. I would not exclude ANY opinion here. To those that would stifle discussion due to feelings....this is not play, this is real. Maybe your sport should be tennis. Heinous, foaming anti spacer idiot kent
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Sept 4, 2006 23:18:43 GMT -5
the willie wallace i was referrin' to was the son of abraham lincoln....willie wallace lincoln........he died while lincoln was in office...........i thought you was a reb?......
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Sept 4, 2006 23:41:50 GMT -5
kent.......anti spacer guy.......i am not anti non spacer....some people should not get on rope with a rack with spacers........
the guy who died at el cap tried to apply friction using his right hand and his right leg........that is a last resort thing.........bars are the way to slow a rappel.......why did he not add a bar as he fell for 2000 feet?.......why did he leave phys;ical evidence on the rope in four places (blood) where he was trying to apply hand or hip or leg friction to the point he did?.......when he hit the wall at -2000 feet the indications of friction application via hand, hip or leg friction disappeared.............................................does that sound like he was trying to add bars as a primary way of stopping?..
...maybe....but; what if he was one of a group of people out there who still don't realize that the primary control of their descent on the rope is thru the left hand...............................my reason for posting that survey was that sir............there are still a few old vertical diinosaur cavers who train new vertical people to use their gloved right hand and hip in primarily controlling their descent instread of the bars and the left hand.......
.....and there are also a lot of semi-experienced vertical afficianado's trained by those dino's ......who do that right hand stuff and it ain't never occured to them that they were emphasizing the wrong hand cause they really ain't done that much cavin'..............
i am trying to point out a problem with rapping kent..........there are rappers out there who are trained to use their right hand to slow as the primary thing........INSTEAD OF THEIR LEFT HAND PUSHING UP THE BARS!!!!.............friction on the right hand versus left.................spacers are not even being considered......
.......goodness gracious.....your hatred of spacers iz sooooo very evident kent......i only can hope that the yang in your life brings love to the same degree sir.........
if it should do that..you would be very happy.........simply because of the action of gravity and friction......the brothers of the rappeler.............
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Sept 4, 2006 23:48:00 GMT -5
dirk...or any other thor 06 member.......i have another question......the distance of 4200 feet.....is that the length of rope played out till you reached the bolt that jamie and kenney rapped from when they were doing the final derigging stuff in 04.....you know dirk, that place where they did that tandem rap world record thing.....where we stroked off the rope lengths perfectly............in other words, is the claim of 4200 feet the distance and length of the rope you had rigged at thor...the distance of the j rappel.....OR...
.......or iz that 4200 feet world record rap the vertical elevation change.....and, if so.....it was measured by what method?.....
'm sorry...but i believe any claim of a world record needs to be the vertical elevation change....if for no other reason than that is what it has always been and not the length of the ropeused...........though truthfully...... a legitamate argument, that i would adhere to, could be made for the length of the rope as the barometer............
...........
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 4, 2006 23:50:51 GMT -5
the willie wallace i was referrin' to was the son of abraham lincoln....willie wallace lincoln........he died while lincoln was in office...........i thought you was a reb?...... I had to google Willie Wallace Lincoln. Ya can't make this up! THE William Wallace was probably rolling in his grave over that name choice. Kind of ironic! I'm referring to William Wallace of Scotland. Remember a movie called 'Braveheart'? Any other Willie Wallace is a poser! This Yankee Rebel thing goes way back. I thought YOU were a reb! ;D kent
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Sept 4, 2006 23:58:17 GMT -5
well......it wasn't like i chose to name lincoln's son willie wallace.....and i certainly did not choose for him to die so young....
..though..as i have already publically stated....i am glad that it had the influence it did on dear abraham........as would any other committed southerner sir...
...though .....i certainly regret evidencing publically such a high level committment to the memory of the war of northern aggression while being mislead by someone not willing to evidence the same committment....darn.....sigh.............shucks ya'll.......
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 5, 2006 8:33:03 GMT -5
...though .....i certainly regret evidencing publically such a high level committment to the memory of the war of northern aggression while being mislead by someone not willing to evidence the same committment....darn.....sigh.............shucks ya'll....... You will have to pardon me but I read the previous statement several times and still can't understand exactly what you are talking about. Could you please elaborate for me? I take it that you mean that you hate publicly talking about the late unpleasantness and that one of us is committed to the memory of said war....me or you? Lastly, one of us (I'm thinking you are referring to me now) is not willing to "evidence the same commitment" and I'm misleading folk? Help me out here! ;D kent
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 5, 2006 8:58:31 GMT -5
."....why did he not add a bar as he fell for 2000 feet?...." You ever tried to add a bar in the middle of a fast rap? You ain't gonna do it! "...why did he leave phys;ical evidence on the rope in four places (blood) where he was trying to apply hand or hip or leg friction to the point he did?.." Cause he knew he was in trouble and was desperately trying to stop! ".....when he hit the wall at -2000 feet the indications of friction application via hand, hip or leg friction disappeared.............................................does that sound like he was trying to add bars as a primary way of stopping?.." Again, I think you are mistaken when you think that you could add a bar in flight. I've never been able to. You are basically stuck with the bars you have on at the moment. ."..maybe....but; what if he was one of a group of people out there who still don't realize that the primary control of their descent on the rope is thru the left hand...............................my reason for posting that survey was that sir............there are still a few old vertical diinosaur cavers who train new vertical people to use their gloved right hand and hip in primarily controlling their descent instread of the bars and the left hand.....".. I still ain't buying that he held his rack open to impact with his hand. Once again with what I observed on El Cap with my rack was that if he had 4 bars and NO spacers he would have greatly slowed his fall especially after losing consciousness and letting go. "i am trying to point out a problem with rapping kent..." And all this time I thought you were just harassing me! ... "......spacers are not even being considered...." So no affect from them at all? I'm definitely on a different road than you! ;D ".......goodness gracious.....your hatred of spacers iz sooooo very evident kent......i only can hope that the yang in your life brings love to the same degree sir........." kent
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Sept 5, 2006 15:02:29 GMT -5
to add a bar during an out of control rap.....or to add a bar without stopping.........jam the lowest bar as high as you can...on a non weighted rope you fling the rope over whichever hip will cause the rope to contact the bottom bar the best (could be the opposite side)....turn loose of the rope with your right hand and engage the next bar........... if its a weighted rope then you twist your body so the rope is sliding over the left or right thigh (depending on which direction the bar is clipping in on......clip the bar in as low on the rack as possible........make sure you use your hip to push the sliding rope across the bottom bar currently engaged.......once you have the bar clipped in you slide that sucker up and voila......control is established or CRAP ya gotta do it again!!..you can get burned a little but it really ain't hard to do once you get the idea.........
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 5, 2006 17:30:23 GMT -5
to add a bar during an out of control rap.....or to add a bar without stopping.........jam the lowest bar as high as you can...on a non weighted rope you fling the rope over whichever hip will cause the rope to contact the bottom bar the best (could be the opposite side)....turn loose of the rope with your right hand and engage the next bar........... if its a weighted rope then you twist your body so the rope is sliding over the left or right thigh (depending on which direction the bar is clipping in on......clip the bar in as low on the rack as possible........make sure you use your hip to push the sliding rope across the bottom bar currently engaged.......once you have the bar clipped in you slide that sucker up and voila......control is established or CRAP ya gotta do it again!!..you can get burned a little but it really ain't hard to do once you get the idea......... Wow! I can vaguely envision doing that on a shorter drop but on everything big I've done I think it might hurt! On the big ones I run the rope between my legs and not over my thigh. I also pretty much never add a bar while moving. I would be hesitant to advocate the possibilities of adding bars while on the move and would only feel comfortable if I had performed this several times under many conditions. I also perceive problems on big drops especially if the rope is tensioned from below. Do many rappers add bars on the move? kent
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Sept 5, 2006 22:08:15 GMT -5
i don't normally add bars while i am moving.....i am simply saying that it ain't a bad skill to have!!....i will swap a rope burn on my hip for a 25 percent impact shortened torso anyday.........though i ain't so sure about a rope burn between my thighs!!......oh...i usually do a heavy rope rap with the rope between my legs also......
i been thinking about rapping on a slant.....at the bottom of the drop when the rap went from dead vertical to a gradually increasing angle.....if the rack was attached directly to the seat harness using a single biner the rack would begin to torque, the rope would slide to the right hand side of the rack........it would not matter how the bars were oriented on the rack....the loss of the fourth bar would be predictable if the rope was not managed very carefully....and, in fact you would be using the open "leg" of the rack to hold the rope in the right position to maintain pressure on the bottom bar.....if one forgot that the last bar,...be it fourth or fifth would be easily lost........this loss of direct vertical use of the rack severely comprimizes the safety of the rack and so should be heavily practiced..........and, i can see an angle developing where adding a bar and then engaging it to use it could become very difficult on a tethered or heavy rope..........
the scarey thing is that if you attached the rack to you via two biners this potentially disasterous situation could occur EASIER.......
jeez, slanted rapping is dangerous.........
it seems to me that one would have to use a biner or two attached to the eye of the rack and have the rope passing thru the end biner to hold the rope either in position on slant or close enough to allow an easier chance of manipulation....but....that might making adding bars trickier..........
seems like i noticed that years ago after smokey did that slanted rap and i got interested in that......maybe i heard it from him...i can see that there is a slant rope angle limit on j raps.......unless someone designs a rack for slanted j raps.......
come on cavers......none of you even ventured a guess about the four ways robinson could have safely experienced the drop.....get on the stick and design a new rack for slanted raps......
and as for you lurking thor 06 perps.........what did you think of the angle rap relating to the points i have raised here?......
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Sept 5, 2006 23:30:55 GMT -5
whoa.......i just did a flashback ........i remember what i noted when i rapped a few times on a heavily slanted rope...... the open end of the rack must be oriented up and the rapper needs to be attached via only one biner..............so............listen up now.......predictable rack torque or seat harness design has to be carefully thought of ................................why?......well......if you end up with the open END of the rack down when you reach the heavily slanted part of the rope...... and you can no longer shift which side of the rope you are on by moving your body relative to the rope (did i lose anybody there?).......you can't add a bar......it becomes an impossibility!..... ... ......... that can be serious......... with the open end up bars can be added by twisting and flipping the rope from side to side as you shift your position to the left or right by using your arms and legs (if needed to shift the rope)... :oFAST OR SPEEDY RAPPELING IS NOT RECOMMENDED ON A SLANTED ROPE UNLESS FACTORS ARE PREDICTABLE AND PROVEN ...... OH....one really cool thing is that the right hand glove would need to have a very robust gauntlet if it was doin' regular j rapping.......you would use it, in place of the bare skin on the back or frount of your wrist.. (and also instead of your normally used sides of the thighs) to generate the friction and force needed to shift the rope from left to right 8-)as you twisted your legs to the left or right side of the rope, as you changed the life's dependent rack's relationship to you, your hips, your life, the rope, and the bars.............assuming eternally weighted ropes .......
|
|
|
Post by madratdan on Sept 6, 2006 8:03:58 GMT -5
I love flashbacks. You haven't lost me yet, eyecave. Your discriptions make perfect since to me. I was trying to find the pictures again, but the myspace link doesn't seem to be working for me. I swear that it looked like one of the guys in the picture was going over the lip on three bars. I can't imagine trying to twist my body around to manipulate the rope enough to add a bar in a fast repel. Do you actually practice this stuff with a weighted down rope, in a tree or something?
|
|