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Post by Sharon Faulkner on Feb 11, 2007 19:35:17 GMT -5
I don't know how many of you have received your February issue of the NSS News, I know they arrive at different times in different areas. Mine was delivered last Thursday and I finally had a chance to sit down and read it this afternoon. The entire issue is quite good with articles on Virgil the Turtle Cave in Montana and the Naica Crystal mines, but another item made for interesting reading also. On page 25, Bern Szukalski has a summary on Schroeder's Pants Cave in the Underground Update column. The article reviewed is from the September issue of The Northeastern Caver and includes a few bits of information that I'd never heard about. Definitely worth a read if you haven't already done so.
Sometimes this thread on Schroeder's Pants Cave has seemed like a puzzle with additional pieces trickling in a little at a time, each offering a more complex view of the tragedy. ;D I look forward to seeing the documentary when it's finished.
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Post by Lyonz on Feb 12, 2007 15:09:09 GMT -5
I don't know how many of you have received your February issue of the NSS News, On page 25, Bern Szukalski has a summary on Schroeder's Pants Cave in the Underground Update column. Can someone make a copy of that article and e-mail it to me. I just called the NSS to buy a copy but the office is closed and I am anxious to read the article. I would appreciate any help. Christian Lyon
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Feb 12, 2007 15:30:24 GMT -5
Would a photo of the article be sufficient?
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Post by Lyonz on Feb 12, 2007 20:33:14 GMT -5
Thanks to all that quickly responded. I have the article and will call the NSS tomorrow to buy a hard copy.
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 29, 2007 13:37:21 GMT -5
I arrived back in LA last night after a great time at the 2007 NSS Convention in IN. I had a chance to meet and interview numerous people, some of whom had first hand information regarding Schroeders Pants Cave or Bill Karras. More light was shed onto the story for me. It's just more pieces to an already complex puzzle. But it's one I'm enjoying putting together. For me the highlight of the convention was having the Mitchell family attend the Fri. Banquet. Jim Mitchell (the father) attended for the first time and you could see a sense of pride in his eyes, especially when past recipients of the Mitchell Award came over to meet him and the family. Also attending were Bill and Pam Mitchell and Howard Gentry. I got a chance to chat with Mr. Mitchell and he filled in some more pieces of the puzzle. When the 2007 Mitchell Award recipient was named, it was also learned that the Mitchell family made a sizeable donation, making sure that the award will live on for generations to come. Soon I will be back off to NY and other locals to continue putting this all together. I will keep you all informed.
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Brian Roebuck
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Jul 30, 2007 7:51:08 GMT -5
Lynn and I got to meet Christian during convention for a short time. All of us were very busy doing various things as is the usual case at conventions. We saw him interviewing and filming various cavers as well as the Mitchell family at the banquet. I am sure it was a busy and exciting time for him as well as the Mitchells. It will be interesting to see the results of all the interviews, research, and personal recollections to tell the tale of this tradgedy that happened so long ago. Like the Floyd Collins story it is difficult to know all the facts and sort through peoples perceptions of what happened after so many years.
Let us know when you are getting close to releasing the story Chrisitan. We're all very interested in what it has to say!
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Post by Sharon Faulkner on Jul 30, 2007 9:17:24 GMT -5
I'm interested in reading Christian's story too.
The August 2007 issue of the NSS News has a six page story on the Schroeder's Pants Cave Tragedy, which I read with much interest. The article contains a great deal of unknown or forgotten information from the past.
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 30, 2007 10:44:52 GMT -5
Thanks Dr. Beaner and Sharon. As for the article in the Aug. issue of NSS News - keep in mind that is Tim Downey's take on the story based on his research. I disagree with a number of points he brought up in that article and it's only because of my own research. I commend him for his efforts and his own passion but when one uses the words "What Really Happened" I would think one would talk to more of the people that were actually there that week in '65. Not that the people he and his father have talked to can't add to the story, it's just not the whole story.
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Post by Sharon Faulkner on Jul 30, 2007 16:10:20 GMT -5
Hi Christian, I can't attest to the facts involved in the matter, since I wasn't there, so I'll definitely leave that up to others with better input to discuss. I look forward to seeing your finished product. My overall impression of Tim's article was that it was quite bold. I already had the gist of the main story, thanks to your documentary and information gathering efforts over the last few years, but the additional information surrounding the rescue/body recovery were new to me. I suspect some of the comments written regarding the rescue/body recovery were controversial at the time of the incident, and I would not be surprised if they stir up a bit of controversy again with the current review of the incident. I realize each person may have a different perspective on the incident, even more so when viewed in hindsight, but I did enjoy reading Tim's article. I believe the greater good has been achieved with the renewed interest in the tragedy and with the long overdue body recovery accomplished.
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Post by L Roebuck on Oct 3, 2007 10:49:34 GMT -5
The October 2007 NSS News contains an interesting account of the rescue efforts at Schroder's Pants Cave, page 4- 6 " Schroeder's Pants Cave: An Eyewitness Account " by Scott Thybony as well as a Letter by Christian Lyon referencing an article "What really Happened" in the August 2007 NSS News.
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Post by Sharon Faulkner on Oct 8, 2007 9:03:08 GMT -5
My copy of the News was in the mailbox when I arrived home from TAG last night. Haven't had the chance to sit down and read the article yet, but am looking forward to reading more on the topic.
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Post by JEC on Nov 6, 2007 16:38:48 GMT -5
Very interesting articles in the NSS News about Schroeder’s Pants Cave. I wonder if I am the only one who has noticed the inconsistencies in the “Eyewitness Accounts” from the Rescue Squad. (1) In Mr. Bill Karras’s account (the leader of the rescue team) from the NSS News of April 1965 he states he lowered an electronic stethoscope down to Jim Mitchell to determine if he was alive. (2) But in the “16 year old hard core caver with the necessary skills” Mr. Scott Thybony’s eyewitness account in the NSS News 10/2007 he states they lowered Mr. Karras down to the victim and checked him with a stethoscope. (3) Now the eyewitness account of Mr. Doug Bradford as told to The Florida Times-Union July 3, 2006.And I quote from Mr. Bradford’s article. “At the end of the passage, a rope had been lowered in a deep cavern. Water from melting snow was pouring into the cavern and over Mitchell’s body 15 feet below like a waterfall, Bradford said. Bradford was lowered on another rope to Mitchell. But when he grabbed Mitchell’s ice-cold arm, Bradford said he knew the man was dead. After checking for vital signs, Bradford and other rescue team members decided to lower Mitchell 60 feet to the floor of the cavern. Mitchell’s rope was cut while Bradford held his body and the two were lowered to the bottom.” Mr. Bradford’s article can be found on Jackson.com at www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/070306/met_22248776.shtml. These are just the initial misconceptions that jumped out at me when I read the “Eyewitness Account”. There are more and I may write again. It’s too bad that the “team” that was there cannot even get their “own stories” straight. Remember folks that these are the “eyewitness accounts” that the “fictional movie/documentary” are being based on. There are too many inaccuracies in this article and Christians letter for me to let this go. After all, I was the first desecrater and saw first hand what the rescue team did “and” did not do. Also after me there were many NSS members and some people that Christian does not even know of who were on my third trip to the bottom of the pit. Perhaps Christian should talk to people who lived here when the accident happened and not rely on “ fictional eyewitness accounts”! Then maybe he would find out that Tim Downey’s account is much closer to the truth of what took place. Not that I am calling anyone a liar but I was in the cave the fall before the accident and the spring following the accident. I know what the weather was that week. Not some weather bureau 100 miles away! He should talk to people willing to tell the truth and not a different story every time they speak! Thank you Jim Crane NSS # 8344
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Post by Azurerana on Nov 6, 2007 22:14:41 GMT -5
You have an interesting perspective, which too should be included.
The truth is, without video/audio tapes of the event (and even they might be doctored) no one will ever know beyond a shadow of a doubt what the so-called truth is. Every jury knows this as they attempt to piece together a crime scene, or every mom with three kids, when they come in to report "who broke the vase."
There is no such thing as a totally objective reporter, not of a car wreck which happened 30 seconds ago, and most certainly not of a 40 year old tragedy. The best one can do is gather conflicting reports and attempt to tell the story from within the pieces available.
I never met Bill Karras, but his reputation preceded him from people I respect who knew him, and consequently, any first hand report from him-- even a contemporary account-- has to take into account certain biases. I'm certain that the same holds true for all the respondents in Christian's accounts. Since most of us don't know the writers or reporters personally, we cannot be sure of their biases, whether familial or personal, to the perceived benefit of the Mitchell family, from a profit motive, on behalf of cave access or the landowner or just to enhance one's reputation, or tear down that of others.
Since you self-identify as a desecrater, why should your point of view be considered unbiased?
There is no 'one story' of the Civil War. It's pretty shattering to read various histories of Vietnam in which Ho Chi Minh is a democratic hero, and compare it to the pictures of Ho painted on the American TV news during the 1960s, and compare them to the 'first hand accounts' of Dr. Tom Dooley and the American forces during the exodus from the north in 1953/54, vs the tales of Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden during her "Hanoi Jane" period, and compare those to a two year draftee on the ground in the jungles, vs a career Navy man who spent his time in the South China Sea doing air support. Where is the "truth" in all of that? It depends where you stand.
If you'd prefer another analogy--what is the 'true' version of the Bible? Which collection and version of the books you believe is true depends upon your denomination, and location in time and space. There is no final objective arbiter of 'truth'.
Likewise, I doubt if there is one "Jim Mitchell story". All one has to do is look at the evolvement of the Floyd Collins legend from the Louisville Courier next day dispatches to Bruckers's book, to movies made, to Homer's stage circuit stories, to the Floyd Collins musical and one soon figures out that any story of human tragedy amasses a few core skeleton facts, and the rest of the story fleshes out like a paint-by number picture, where each person interprets the story a bit differently. Over the course of these exchanges of the last few years, I've heard all sorts of assessments of Jim Mitchell's character, from outstanding young hero, to a regular guy with a thing for caves. Since a tragic death at a young age colors one's life, we likely won't know the "truth" about Jim Mitchell, either.
I've met Christian twice at conventions, and while I don't fully understand his obsession with this incident, I don't seriously believe that he has any big motivations other than the ones he has professed-- to see Jim Mitchell laid to rest, and to make a documentary of the incident which he knows of since he is related to one of the landowners, and he grew up hearing many of the tales (both factual and fanciful.) I suspect his finished product isn't going to totally please anyone, perhaps not even himself. But he has made a herculean effort to unearth as many points of view as possible, and to contact as many people as he can in an effort to clear away the cobwebs.
So what is wrong with waiting to see it, and judge for ourselves?
Thanks for making your contribution to our discussion, too. Somehow I get the impression that this whole topic is like exploring a cave by candlelight. Over here, remains dark, over there, the shadow rises 3 times life size, and the room is never fully illuminated at one time.
But it's the mystery which remains which draws us underground.
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Post by Brad Tipton on Nov 7, 2007 17:01:29 GMT -5
Nice post, Azurerana. This thread is kind of like the game where you tell a story and pass it around the room, person to person. When it gets back to the 1st person it is completely distorted from the original version. It is an intriguing, tragic story regardless.
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Post by L Roebuck on Nov 8, 2007 9:32:56 GMT -5
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Post by Lyonz on Nov 10, 2007 14:13:59 GMT -5
I have talked to numerous people that were there that week including relatives, firefighters, and townspeople. I have also reached out on two previous occasions this past year and once this week to JEC and have gotten no response. For the record - I am 100% willing to meet with JEC and anybody else who feels they have something to contribute to this story. Anytime, anyplace. I have no hidden agenda here and only want to tell the story from all sides and then let you the viewers make your own educated decisons.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Nov 13, 2007 9:37:55 GMT -5
I have also reached out on two previous occasions this past year and once this week to JEC Yeap, yeap, yeap......now that's the love I'm talking about!
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