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Post by Lyonz on Jul 3, 2006 13:31:28 GMT -5
I only want peace. But with that being said, I will not sit back and allow my good name or my good intentions and actions to be tarnished. With That being said, I will not be responding to anybody else who feels they need to put down the work I have done or the recovery of James Gentry Mitchell's remains. This blog has taken a turn that distracts from what the real intentions are, and I certainly am not proud of the turn. Christian Lyon
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Post by kortc on Jul 3, 2006 19:36:02 GMT -5
hi all let me introduce myself yes i am son to jec and cousin to lyonz and lets not forget that it was also my grandfather and great uncle who discovered this cave i have a strong connection to this cave, as this was the first cave that i ever explored, not even being a teenager yet and i will always relate to SPC for the caving experience that i have obtained through the years although the last response from lyon was not i tended for me i feel i should respond just to one part yes i grew up with a gravestone in my backyard ( how many of you can say that ) and that very stone was purchased by Clark Downey RIP the thing that amazes me is that with christians life long interest in this cave, first of all i never knew about this interest and i also dont seem to recall him volunteering to drag this granite slab 1 mile through the woods actually if i recall correctly i was not even there but i dont think you even know when the monument was placed, do you christian ? ( life long obsecsion ! ) news to me ! i do realize that this meant a lot to you, and i would like to thank you personally, for the effort it seems that we havent spoken personally since this event, other than you calling me and questioning me about my previous post to this forum i personally was proud to be a part of this historic event, not for the documentary aspect, i just wanted to make sure all made it out safely as anybody that has been there with me will attest too i would also like to point out that you have to take the possitive with the negative this shouldnt be all 1 way public forum right ? basically i wanted to say that you werent there to place this monument that meant so much to you ( lifelong obsescion ) and that when anybody questions your intentions, you get very deffensive bad karma dude ! sorry for the long post happy caving to all kortney
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 4, 2006 0:10:11 GMT -5
I agree Kortney, that these forums should not be one sided. But I also agree that if someone is going to make accusations, they should have proof. And if it is determined that there was misinformation that we believed over the years (including myself) then we should acknowledge the new information that was discovered. It seems to me that some people are stuck in the past and are not willing to admit there might be a different story. For example, it was mentioned on Friday, the day before we went in for the recovery, that Jim's helmet was placed over his face after being lowered to the bottom of the pit in '65. The response to that was "BS" his helmet is not down there. Well we found his helmet on Sat. but I'm sure that won't mean anything. That's why I get defensive because it is out of frustration that people don't want to at least take a look at the new discoveries and maybe, just maybe see it in a new light. With that being said, I felt extremely safe inside SPC due to you being there. You have always been extremely helpful, supportive and insightful and for that, I thank you. As for the headstone, it is hard living 3000 miles away to do anything spur of the moment. I'm glad it's there and having the Crane, Downey and Lyon family haul it back there was right. With that being said, this has never been a personal attack. I just am very passionate about this project.
Christian Lyon
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Post by JEC on Jul 4, 2006 15:40:22 GMT -5
Welll, now is when I should just say I rest my case. But!
Can you believe all of this for wanting the facts RIGHT!
Boy miss a couple days and all H lets loose.
# 1 I am not an experienced caver. I held my own.
#2 I am not interested in any confidential report, only facts. When Clark finally got a hold of someone who knew the facts he was invited here by that person and put in touch with Duane & me. That person being your grandfather. As far as any other reported entrance, that was insinuated to the State Police and the public by your grandfather (the Judge) to keep people from finding the way in. Who cares what BS Clark heard on the corner in downtown Dolgeville! I thought a documentary was about facts! Have I ONCE mentioned any confidential report? Nope! All I care about are the facts. And yes, as far as I am concerned you are trying to slam Clark. One needs only to read your posts. You can't take them back you know.
As far as me knowing you did damn good in Schroeder’s? Nope! At fifteen I went further than you did on my first cave trip ever. Whooptee Doo! Who cares! Plus, now the cave is bigger and easier than ever.
The MEDIA CIRCUS- Had this been handled right there would have been no need for troopers keeping the public out. It would have been low key like I said but then that would not have been to your benefit, right? You would not have had everybody and their brother lining the road to get in there. A circus.
As to your theatrics upon exiting the cave, did you hear the laughter? There was a lot! One comment I heard was "I wanted to barf". You can be proud of that! Even Bill Mitchell after spending 4 hours in the cave was a lot more dignified than you were. To use your expression, COME ON !!!
As for "SAD", you can’t even get those facts straight!! Yes, when I was alone in the bottom of that pit for the first time in my life (age 19), after a tragic accident, I was a little up tight, and upon finding a lone bone separate from an "intact" dead body that I had just seen, Guess what ? With people up top telling me to bring it up I DID! Not ashamed of that! Not one bit! I would like to see you even come close to what I experienced that day. YOU couldn’t handle it! No way. I know you well. That bone was then given to your grandfather who had it examined. That’s when it was found to be a human bone. Your grandfather then placed the bone in a lock box. GEE and here I had it all these years. WHEN I got the box given to me by your grandfather it was my intent and always has been, to return it to its rightful place. But never returning to the bottom of the pit again, it was never accomplished. Perhaps "YOU" would have had me drop it from the top of the pit, NOT!!
You can try to make me out to be an ogre but I know the FACTS, of which you will never know all.
As for moving the bone, you bet!! I inadvertently showed you where it was in a picture. I was going to see to it that you did not get photos of it for your documentary & insure that we were invited to witness the "show", and that is what it was. Otherwise I would have missed your theatrics! OH they were good. Well the coroner got the bone not you. Sorry!
Now as to the grave stone. One of your cousins helped me pick that stone up in Fort Plain, and we trucked it to my house in the back of a station wagon. Didn’t think we would even get it that far! They loaded it with chain falls. Just MORE FACTS of which you know LITTLE!! Now if I was an OGRE, I would have put it over my shoulder and hauled it in there alone! Why didn’t you ever offer to help? Oh yes I remember you were to busy exploring the cave!!
After rereading your posts I have a comment about this helmet deal. I never in any comment said his helmet is not down there. What, did he cave without one? Did the rescue team take it? I will say that what Doug Bradford had to say is BS. I’ve been there, I KNOW! Jim’s body did not move until after 1971, and that’s when the flow of water altered the WHOLE cave. But you wouldn’t know that because you never did the original cave! For that matter neither has my son Kort. Must be gremlins moved the body from where DOUG BRADFORD placed him!! Give me a "BREAK". Remember I have the proof!!! For that matter even Bill Mitchell does not know the cave that his brother did because it HAS changed since then. He didn't even due the drop in the pit that his brother did! You can't disprove what I know. Think about it.
As for you getting defensive, you and I both know what that is about! As for Bill and his family being elated, GREAT. I hope this gives them the peace they so rightly deserve.
As for your documentary, I am sure it will make money. After all, it will be a first.
The "FIRST FICTIONAL DOCUMENTARY" ever made!!!
Thanking ALL for their tolerance while I tried to get the FACTS straight and shoot down the media plus having to respond to the character assassinations. I apologize for my rantings! Alas I "STILL" remain
"UNASHAMED JEC"
Jim Crane
PS Thank You Christian for proving my points! PPS I guess I am passionate too. I believe I earned the right also.
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 4, 2006 22:08:01 GMT -5
As I stated in an earlier post. I will no longer respond to the negative comments anyone directs toward me. I am proud of my accomplishments and my actions. I followed through on recovering James Mitchell's remains. I often wonder why so many went in and never brought him out. I do have one lingering question regarding Jim Mitchell. I have seen 2 slides of the body taken in 1967 (if I'm not mistaken on the year) and it shows the body on its stomach and almost completely burried with rocks. The only area not burried was the lower back and butt area. Now I know JEC believes the body was dropped to the bottom of the pit after the rope was cut. If that is the case, I would think there would be lots of broken bones. Then there is the senario that the body was lowered to the bottom of the pit and placed on its back by the rescue crew. They left after the pit opening collapsed. That too could explain the rocks on the body but I would think that would cause a lot of breakage also when rocks come crashing down 60 feet. But the fact is - I just saw all the major bones and there was no breakage. I honestly have no idea as to what happened - and I find it irresponsible of those (including my grandfather) that claim they know all the facts. My grandfather was a great man and revered in society but this is onething I have to question. Asking questions is a good thing. Trying to find answers is also a good thing. Being to stubborn to even look at other possabilities is unfortunate. But I guess I can't change those that know it all.
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Post by Azurerana on Jul 4, 2006 22:59:50 GMT -5
I often wonder why so many went in and never brought him out. Mr. Lyons: I have no right to speak about this particular case, and have no strong opinion--pro or con-- on your efforts. I've never caved in New York, nor anywhere near there in 20 years of caving. Other than as the name on a prestigious award, I have no knowledge of Mr. James Mitchell. However, you ask why so many went in and never recovered his remains. It's likely because nearly all of us know of the 60+ year travesty which was committed against the remains of Mr. Floyd Collins, after his untimely demise in a Kentucky cave--a story you can find elsewhere, and which too, was marked by undue media attention, wrangles, hassles and petty disagreements of the sort which seem to have surfaced here. I suspect those who entered SPC and viewed Mr. Mitchell's remains wished to spare his family a repeat of the heartbreak, grief and hassle which the Collins' family was subject to. Also, since the cave was closed, presumably permanently due to its being dangerous, most responsible cavers would not and did not disturb either the cave nor its contents. As I said, this is no comment on your efforts-- I am a stranger to the details of the original tragedy, and your subsequent efforts to recover the remains of Mr. Mitchell, and am sure your effort was made in good faith. But some long time cavers *do* think of cave entombment as being a proper burial... similar to sailors who are buried at sea, and we would no more thinking of moving such remains than someone would search the North Atlantic for a deceased maritime relative. Burial and funerary wishes and customs are quite diverse-- I learned long ago not to question what people wanted done with their remains after they are gone. I suspect most of the cavers who entered SPC felt that decision had been made for Mr. Mitchell back in 1965, and they felt no need to disturb his final resting place. best wishes, Azurerana
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 4, 2006 23:21:33 GMT -5
You bring up interesting questions and comments. As stated in numerous news outlets, had the Mitchell family not wanted this to happen it would not have. Once I located them and got their approval I moved forward. This project was started in July of '03 and it wasn't until March of '06 that I located the family and started planning the recovery. Up until then it was strictly trying to learn the facts from the people who were actually in the cave that week.
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Post by madratdan on Jul 5, 2006 9:29:21 GMT -5
I must say, this has been a fascinating and informative thread to follow.
A little off topic here, but does anyone have the history behind how the NSS award came to be? All I could find on the web and in my members manual was what it was given for but not how it came to be.
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Jul 8, 2006 9:17:27 GMT -5
Shoot Dan, I have no idea either. Some of the older cavers on this forum should know the answer or at least know who to ask. Maybe I can ask Dr Barr about it next time I e-mail him. He should know something about it being one of the early members of the Society. I wonder if that was the first award named after a fallen caver? Maybe searching some of the old NSS news issues could give us clues. We only have a sporadic supply of those around here having bought them at grotto auctions etc.
Anyone else have any ideas on how to find this. Perhaps the NSS library?
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 9, 2006 2:05:27 GMT -5
I contacted the Mitchell family and they are checking into it. Obviously I want to get my facts right before I post them so as not to have more unwanted negativity flung my way from those that probably already know this answer as well.
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Jul 9, 2006 8:44:12 GMT -5
Hi Christian, Thanks for your continued efforts. I did contact Dr. Thomas C. Barr about the Mitchell award history issues. Tom knew about Schroeder’s Pants Cave from discussions and watching slides of the cave with Duane Featherstonhaugh. Duane lived in an old, rural, family farmhouse not far away and had been in SPC several times. From Duane's descriptions and slides Dr. Barr describes the cave as only about 150 ft long to the wet pit, but that it takes an hour and a half to worm your way back there. Tom didn't want any part of going to that cave! When Mitchell got killed in that cave Dr. Barr says he knew exactly where it happened.
Tom thought the Jim Mitchell Award was established about 1957, before he went on the NSS BOG. He recommended checking the NSS Archives (if any!) to ascertain the exact date or maybe checking the NSS News. Tom recalls that Roy (Davis) became the NSS News editor after that incident and thought that maybe Bill Hill was editor at the time of the Mitchell tragedy. Tom also suggested that Bill Halliday might recall the incident, but that he was not on the BOG yet either - nor was Tom Rea. Dr. Barr also thinks that other people who would know more are likely to be dead.
I may try to contact Bill Halliday about this as well since he lives in my area and might know about the history of the Mitchell award as well.
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 9, 2006 11:17:13 GMT -5
Thanks also to you for trying to find the answer. Did you mean 1967 ?? The accident was in 1965. Also Dr. Barr is correct in that SPC is only about 150' long before you get to the drop-off. The crew that I had in there also did a survey which when completed, I will post here as well. As for the pit - it was measured in 2 sections - the first being a 60' drop and the second one, further down being another 27'. So the total footage of the pit, as it was just surveyed is 87'. As for the time it takes to get back to the pit -that depends on a persons size and their abbilities. A larger person without much experience would have a tough time getting back there, if at all. The cave has definately opened up over the years since Mitchell was back in there though. In talking with relatives, they explained how they used to have to do it and it is quiter a bit different these days. In any event - any info that you find would be greatly appreciated. Oh by the way - is Duane Featherstonhaugh still alive? I have 4 articles from the NSS NEWS, regarding SPC, from '48,'49' and '50 and Duane is mentioned in all.
Christian Lyon
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Jul 9, 2006 12:10:51 GMT -5
I bet Dr. Barr mistyped the date. I didn't catch that but I am sure you are correct. It sounds like at the time SPC was an extremely demanding cave with tight spots and colder temperatures than we endure in the Southeast where it is only 56 degrees F in most caves (although sometimes in winter cold melt water enters some of our caves too). It will be interesting to see the survey results in any case. Caves do get modified by cavers as the years go by. Many classics around here have been opened to the point that even chubby cavers now fit through the tightest spots. Being a bit chubby I have no issues with that - but some of the original skinny explorers just might think it ruins the experience and allows "less worthy beings" access to these places. I am unsure if Tom Barr knows is Duane is alive or not. I'll have to ask him. It would be great to have access to the same slides that Tom was able to view many years ago as well. I wonder if Duane or his relatives have them still? If I find out anything else I'll let y'all know.
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Post by L Roebuck on Jul 9, 2006 12:23:27 GMT -5
Here's a tidbit. In the NSS News, Bulletin 11, Novemeber 1949 lists Duane Featherstonhaugh on the National Speleological Society Board of Governors.
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 9, 2006 15:00:24 GMT -5
I'm sure that the slides Duane has are either duplicates or similiar to the ones my relatives have. I borrowed the slides from my cousin to show at my Nov. 2005 presentation. They were the slides that my great uncle and grandfather took in the late 40's inside SPC. And being that the July of '49 mentions Duanes name along side my relatives, I'm sure the slides are the same. I still would be interested in knowing if he is alive though. There are only 2 members of my family that are still alive from that first group of explorers. An aunt and a cousin. I've interviewed both at length and had my cousin write down all his thoughts or recolections of those early days inside SPC. As for any persons changing the course of SPC - the National Capital Grotto Rescue Team, led by Bill Karras did alter some of the interior as they were trying to enlarge some of the passages in the event they were able to bring Jim back out the way he came in, but most is just due to decades of water flowing through the cave.
Christian
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Post by Azurerana on Jul 9, 2006 20:08:09 GMT -5
According to the book: Caving in America-- The Story of the National Speleological Society 1941-1991, on page 245, it says the James G. Mitchell Award for the best scientific paper presented at Convention by a presenter under age 25 was established in 1970. It is only presented when a qualifying young candidate gives a paper, so there is not an award every year.
This book also says"the body was 'quietly recovered' by Lew Bicking and Jerry Frederick. (p. 255), and it was after the recovery that the family endowed the award." A picture of Mitchell, and the disputed memorial stone is in this book.
Hmmmm....Lew Bicking (also died tragically young and has an award named after him) can't tell us any more, and there is no listing for Jerry Frederick in the NSS members manual. Wonder what *actually * happened, not in 1965, but in regards to this reported body recovery in the late 1960s (also according to the book, Bicking died in 1969).
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 9, 2006 23:32:35 GMT -5
Well that's some book !! I inquired months ago about Jerry Frederick and the answer I got was that he too is deceased. So no disrespect to the deceased but there was NOT a "quiet recovery" back in the late 60's!!! The only recovery happened on June 24th 2006 with Bill Mitchell (James' brother and Howard Gentry, his cousin) on hand as witnesses. Bill was in the cave and retrieved his brothers remains so that book and anything regarding the tragedy should be looked at suspiciously.The book sounds alot like the book A Million Little Pieces - a bunch of garbage.
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Post by JEC on Jul 10, 2006 8:47:06 GMT -5
Well now there are three scenarios as to what the rescue crew did with the remains. 1) Place him in a bag and move him out of the way so that the drilling would not damage his body. 2) Lay him on his back with a helmet over his face. Why they didn’t move him somewhat out of harms way is beyond me. After all, Doug Bradford spent 4 days in the bottom of the pit (per/ him). And 3) my version that the rope was cut and he was dropped because there was no intention of removing the remains. Other wards why would they stop the drilling just before gaining entry with the big drill bit? Oh yes, I remember, the whole end of the cave collapsed. This according to diagrams that the "rescue crew" drew up after they fled the cave. Amazingly they even knew how much damage was caused after each dynamiting.
Of course all of this is by a 17 year old just reading the rescuers reports at the time. Now I may be stubborn in my views but that is due to first hand knowledge, me being the first to view the scene that same year and then the bottom of the pit approx. 2 years after that. As to no broken bones, I haven’t a clue. Maybe a dead body is different than a live one as far as bones breaking goes. Ask the coroner.
As to your grandfather, he was a great judge of character. Perhaps that is why he threw Bill Karras out of his home. This only being hearsay by me from relatives as I wasn’t personally there. Maybe you should ask Doug about the three boys in the Mark Twain Caves. I believe Karras to be a glory hound as some others I have met.
I’m impressed that you are finally trying to get your facts straight. But had you paid attention the one time you seen actual proof, you would have noticed that Jim was not on his stomach as you stated. In FACT, you would have noticed the rope draped haphazardly over his remains. NICE JOB DOUG! The weekend of your show I listened to Bradford and waited for a certain comment about the pit bottom. None came. I don’t believe he was ever in the bottom because he would have mentioned something about it or at the least the body would not have been found where it was. My regret is that I didn’t speak up, but out of respect for Bill’s feelings I kept quiet. Only to find out after the weekend how the truth was skewed and of all the untruths told by you and others. I guess I should have run my mouth, then maybe some facts would have come out.
So you see I don’t know ALL the facts. I do know what I witnessed and have the proof. Perhaps all these questions that you ask are directed at the wrong sources. I’m willing to look at other possibilities, such as how the cave grew itself back, and how Jim managed to move his body around while under a pile of rocks.
Bring on the possibilities, I’m willing to learn the answers, believe it or not.
Seeing Bill Mitchell’s thank you letter in the Little Falls paper and his mention of the memorial stone, I only wonder if he knows who provided it. After all, that is what started all this so called negativity. Giving CREDIT where credit is due
As for no longer responding to negative comments directed toward you and your nonfactual reporting, you sure send a lot of digs my way in this forum and the local paper. But I still stand by any FACTS I state. So if I, (and your grandfather), are irresponsible for stating facts that we know, so be it. As far as stating the rope was cut and he was dropped, that was a belief not a fact. You can change my thoughts when you show me proof. To bad your grandfather and Clark aren’t around to defend themselves instead of relying on me.
And yes Christian, I may already know that one answer as well. But I am not positive and will wait for you to bring out those facts!
JEC
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Post by Azurerana on Jul 10, 2006 9:37:07 GMT -5
The question was asked when was the Mitchell Award first given. Caving in America documents the recipients of the award, first given in 1970. That recipient was Peter Hauer. I doubt the book is '"all a bunch of garbage." Neither is it inerrant--after all, no book or story is--all every story does is tell what happened from the author(s) point of view. Your credibility is not increased by name-calling when a point of view does not agree with yours.
The book is obviously pro-NSS... after all, it was issued as a 50th Anniversary history by the Society. It does have five editors, which means it was done under oversight to get facts as straight as possible.
Since you know Bill Mitchell, maybe you can clear up a) if the familiy actually endowed the award and b) why.
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Post by C. Downey on Jul 10, 2006 10:09:46 GMT -5
As the younger son of Clark, I've held my peace far too long hoping that Christian would show some respect for family and the facts, and most importantly for James Mitchell.
In the beginning I was pulling for a young man leaving a rural area like Dolgeville and giving the sport of caving more exposure however, fame has a way of loosening a man’s morals.
My humble request is to leave my father (Clark) out of future discussions since as Jim mentions is not around to defend himself.
My father was a great caver (I have 8,000 slides to document his accomplishments and Christian, whether you realize it or not, one of the finest teams in the Northeast were assembled in Clark, Jim, Monty, Jack and others. There's a caving code you can't relate to, the same I'm sure James Mitchell believed in. Essentially, taking adventure and risking life together with few rewards except to say “I conquered XXX…” – it’s pure.
Jim's account of what happened is as close to fact as one could hope for so instead of trying to make a "Hollywood" version fit, I suggest listening to someone that was there. For as I'm sure anyone would agree - only one of you have something to gain.
Chris Downey NSS#12265
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 10, 2006 10:43:28 GMT -5
The question was asked when was the Mitchell Award first given. Caving in America documents the recipients of the award, first given in 1970. That recipient was Peter Hauer. I doubt the book is '"all a bunch of garbage." Neither is it inerrant--after all, no book or story is--all every story does is tell what happened from the author(s) point of view. Your credibility is not increased by name-calling when a point of view does not agree with yours. The book is obviously pro-NSS... after all, it was issued as a 50th Anniversary history by the Society. It does have five editors, which means it was done under oversight to get facts as straight as possible. Since you know Bill Mitchell, maybe you can clear up a) if the familiy actually endowed the award and b) why. Nowhere in my response to the book was there any name calling as you suggest. Nor am I putting down the NSS. But for 5 authors to get the facts wrong is pretty remarkable. The only recovery took place 3 weeks ago. "Inerrant" is one thing - saying there was a recovery when there wasn't is something else!
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 10, 2006 11:10:43 GMT -5
Chris Downey ~ No respect for family, facts or JGM ? - I won't touch that one as it is sooo obvious that you know me already. As for your father assembling one of the greatest teams in the Northeast - fantastic. As for Jim's version being the closest to the truth - that's great - that too will fit into my "Hollywood Version" - well that's all as I have got to go "gain something".
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