Bodies of Father and Son found dead in mine

[Tony Anders]

Local news story out of Harlan Kentucky.
www.wkyt.com/wymtnews/headlines/11183996.html

Police say the men were expected home late Saturday night, but never returned.

“This is an extremely sad situation and it is a perfect example as to why no one should ever go in an abandoned mine,” says Dan Mosley, 911 Director in Harlan County.

Just before noon on Sunday, Kentucky State Police received a call, Kevin and Ricky Dixon could be trapped in the Bullhorn Mine. With the Dixons' truck parked outside the mine, and no word from either of the men, friends and family feared the worst. As quickly as possible, rescue crews were inside the mine.

[Brad Tipton]

Bad news. Just recently we had a training session on confined space, air quality, monitors, etc. I never realized until that class how quickly the body will shut down from oxygen deprivation. If the report of 5 percent oxygen is correct, those 2 could have become unconcious in less than 15 seconds. Scary

[Tony Anders]

Yea, I was wondering how easy or common it could be to have 'bad air' in caves. I mean is it more common than one might think? Most of the caves we explore we feel air moving, I am hoping this air is 21% oxygen.

Should we start carrying some kind of o2 monitor in our gear. Let's hope not, I know from getting those monitors at work they can be quite pricey.

[Brian Roebuck]

I have experienced bad air in a couple of small pits with lots of leaves and wood at the bottom. As it breaks down the plant stuff creates CO2 which displaces the air. CO2 is heavier than air and will settle at the bottom. The deeper you go the more light headed you get. I also got rather paranoid and wanted to get out of the cave. One fellow had his carbide lamp go out repeatedly. We were at the middle level with one man 25 feet down a drop below us. We figured out what was going on and had him come back up. I had trouble climbing the short 30 feet back out on rope. It was exhausting to me. Some say that a Bic lighter will flame with a large gap (an inch or so) between the tip and flame bottom in bad air. You can try that to see if oxygen is lower than normal. If so leave immediately. Steep sloping caves or pits with no airflow and lots of organic stuff rotting at the bottom are the worst for this. Unlike most caves mines can have all sorts of gases present that could be dangerous or displace the air. You may never know what hits you if you go inside. Keep out of them.

[Brad Tipton]

muddog said:

Yea, I was wondering how easy or common it could be to have 'bad air' in caves. I mean is it more common than one might think? Most of the caves we explore we feel air moving, I am hoping this air is 21% oxygen.

Should we start carrying some kind of o2 monitor in our gear. Let's hope not, I know from getting those monitors at work they can be quite pricey.

I have been in one shallow pit that I felt had bad air. I got rather sick and labored to climb out. There was a lot of debris that had washed into it and I wonder if it wasn't from all the decomposition.

The air monitors are not nearly as expensive as they used to be. Hamilton Co. Cave Team just purchased 3 new ones and they ranged from 300 to 450 dollars. I don't think they would hold up in the cave enviroment week after week though. Not to mention you must calibrate them before you use them, every time you use them, that would be a hassle.

[Brad Tipton]

drbeaner said:

I have experienced bad air in a couple of small pits with lots of leaves and wood at the bottom.

Dr,

That is interesting. Curious as to where those caves were. Maybe we have had the same experience in the same place.

[Brian Roebuck]

I use the monitors at work too Brad and yes they require lots of calibration, test gases, and other expenses. Your best bet is to be aware of what may occur in caves and have experienced people with you in case you get into trouble. Carrying a Bic is better than nothing but not really a sure method of testing the air. Caves can be confined spaces in certain situations and if you can't get fresh air in good quantity you are in trouble. Be aware of decomposing organic materials, low or no air flows, and that deep sections of caves and pits can contain lower air concentrations than is healthy.

[Brian Roebuck]

bradtipton said:

drbeaner said:

I have experienced bad air in a couple of small pits with lots of leaves and wood at the bottom.

Dr,

That is interesting. Curious as to where those caves were. Maybe we have had the same experience in the same place.

My first time was south of M'boro (TN) in a small pit "My Cave" TRU 83. I doubt anyone has been back to it. Ron Zawislak, Keith Filson, Marbry Hardin, and Don Lance were along.

I can't really remember the other one but it was equally obscure and years ago as well.

[Brad Tipton]

Hmm, It was a pit in TN, but I don't recognize the name. I will have to search my logs

[L Roebuck]

I recall most of the caves where we have experienced 'bad air' have been small caves with lots of debris - logs, leaves, other assorted decomposing vegetation - and stagnant air. It is curious that the effects of bad air seem to creep up so slowly that its hard to recognize. But it seems 'extreme agitation' or aka ' a very grumpy caver' appears to be one of the key symptoms.

[Tony Anders]

It is curious that the effects of bad air seem to creep up so slowly that its hard to recognize. But it seems 'extreme agitation' or aka ' a very grumpy caver' appears to be one of the key symptoms.

We wouldn't be talking about someone in particular would we?

[Azurerana]

drbeaner said:

. Carrying a Bic is better than nothing but not really a sure method of testing the air.

That is assuming you don't have methane in there as well...

Many caves have 'dead' stagnant air, but the methane is really bad. Actually. carbon monoxide is much worse than even moderate amounts of CO2. I think most people can endure atmospheric percentages of 16-18% O2 without severe adverse effects-- the problem is largely what is replacing the missing O2.

I would say if you see your buds acting stupid underground, clear out of there, but actually if more than one person gets a sudden splitting headache about the same time, or starts hyperventilating, it's time to turn around.

[MessedUpMike]

Warning science content:

CO is especially dangerous because it bonds with the hemoglobin in your blood, the part that carries oxygen to your cells, more readily than O2 does. I suspect that CO2 is a more likely hazard to be encountered on a regular basis. Headache, lethargy, sudden mood changes are all indicators it's time to get out now!

Air monitoring, at least the way I was taught to do it, is realistically to much work for hobby caving. The equipment is expensive, the record keeping is staggering, and progress is butt slow. I think for the time being if I have any doubt I'll go find a "safe" spot.

[L Roebuck]

muddog said:

It is curious that the effects of bad air seem to creep up so slowly that its hard to recognize. But it seems 'extreme agitation' or aka ' a very grumpy caver' appears to be one of the key symptoms.

We wouldn't be talking about someone in particular would we?

LOL yes Dr. B gets really cranky in ' bad air caves' . That's one of the 1st ques we have learned over the years that indicates we need to leave the cave asap! Me, I will get a headache first then later feel like I can't breath easily.

Several years ago we were checking out a small pit (Braziers Pit) anyway it had a boulder choke that the guys kept taking turns in and trying to break loose to see if the pit went deeper. Dr. B was down when the grumpy began echoing out of the hole (sob, muther, etc, etc) after a few seconds of questions- I told him he should climb out. He reached the surface got some fresh air and was once again the old lovable Dr. Beaner again! So its always good to pay attention to you caving team members mood swings. If their mood shifts suddenly - something is wrong.