Salamander eats bat droppings

[L Roebuck]

Monday, December 5, 2005 · Last updated 5:50 p.m. PT

Scientist: Salamander eats bat droppings
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

OKLAHOMA CITY -- After two years of study in an isolated northeast Oklahoma cave, Jim Stout has discovered that a rare species of grotto salamander has a diet much different from what was expected.

Stout, the supervisor of the Herpetarium at the Oklahoma City Zoo, has helped write a report published by a leading scholarly journal that documents how a blind cave-dwelling salamander eats bat droppings. The salamander was thought to subsist on bugs and shrimp and this is the first report of a salamander, or any amphibian, living on bat guano.

His article is in the Proceedings of the Royal Society of London: Biological Sciences. Dante Fenolio collaborated on the research.

"Because bats don't fully digest their food, their guano was pretty nutritious, and actually had more calories than the tiny shrimp," Stout said. "In effect, by eating the bat droppings, the salamanders have cut out the middle man."

At the time of the study, Fenolio, an expert in salamanders, was working on his master's degree at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, Stout said.

Fenolio is now at the University of Miami, Fla., where he is working on his doctorate.

In addition to Stout, Fenolio's co-authors on the journal article are G.O. Graening, a cave biologist with the Nature Conservancy in Arkansas, and Bret A. Collier of Texas A&M University's department of wildlife and fisheries sciences in College Station, Texas.

Stout said the group's original mission was a two-year population ecology study of a federally protected cave in Delaware County.

Stout said about 15,000 grey bats live in the cave he studied.

"Except for the bats, the cave is a pretty sterile environment, and the grotto salamander population was larger than we thought the cave could support," Stout said. "Things didn't add up at first."

The researchers also noticed a significant drop in the grotto salamander population when the migrating bats were not there. The bats live in the cave from May to December.

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Source:
Information from: The Oklahoman, www.newsok.com
seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1501AP_Salamander_Diet.html

[Azurerana]

I have no idea why this is news. Typhlitriton speleaus, the Ozark grotto salamander, has been known to eat guano for at least the last 20 years that I am aware of. The species which starts life as dark larva with eyes and grows to an adulthood where the eyelids fuse shut, and it becomes depigmented and largely aquatic is markedly different colored (dirty gray) in caves with high bat populations.

Perhaps just a case of people reinventing fire, and then saying LOOK at me...I just got burned...

[L Roebuck]

Hummm...seems this knowledge may some how be forgotten by some over the years and so there must be a need to repeat/republish the information.

[Salamander Fan]

Interesting comment by azurerana but I think potentially an unfair one. It is easy to say, "Typhlitriton speleaus, the Ozark grotto salamander, has been known to eat guano for at least the last 20 years that I am aware of" without backing the comment up. Knowing of something and publishing it are not the same thing. Demonstrating that it is done regularly is also different from a one time observation - read the paper, it explains all of this. Azurerana, can you provide us with a peer reviewed report of the behavior in Eurycea spelaea (name changed in 2004) prior to the publication of this paper? Is there a non-review caving society report of it? I am very familiar with this study. Many highly respected, biologically oriented cavers in the Ozarks were consulted regarding this find (including all of the reputable "old-time" folks that have been caving for years and years there) and not one of them "knew that this salamander had been eating guano for at least 20 years." A citation would be appreciated to back up the "yesterday's news" comment.

Thanks!!

[cavediver7]

I have to agree with Salamander Fan. None of the reptile and amphibian guides to any of the states that overlap the Ozarks mention guano feeding in the grotto salamander. All of R.A. Brandon's ecology work on the grotto salamanders doesn't mention it. One of the most prominent and respected biospeleologists from the Ozarks, Bill Elliot, was interviewed in a Nature write up of the guano feeding article and he hadn't realized that grotto salamanders eat guano and thought it was a really neat discovery.

I'm piping up because it's all too easy to write something on an internet forum and purport to be well read while the converse is true. Azurerana, please answer Salamander Fan's question and back your claim up.

[Azurerana]

Y'all are gonna have to wait a week, because I'm away from my library.. . but I'll follow up on this.

I'm not disputing the Oklahoma researcher's finds. In fact, I'm agreeing with them. All you've presented so far are ad hominem arguments that the people you know didn't know about this, whereas I'm saying the people I know have known this as a general observation for many years. There are lots of things in caves that are so obvious no one ever 'researches' it and puts out papers. In fact, I'm not sure why you are disputing about this at all. Like I said...I'm away from my books-- I'll get back to you.

BTW, my degree and specialty is geology, and have researched AND published my undergrad thesis, (as well as studying geology for about 40 years now) , so arguments that 'I don't understand science' won't wash. I'm also pretty well versed in biology, at least as well as any caver, and have a spouse with a research masters in biology, so that science isn't a mystery world to me, either.

Azurerana

[cavediver7]

Dear Azurerana,

I'm confused because what you are saying now doesn't match what you first posted. I'll explain:

Please understand that my arguments are being posted here because, as I read it, you made a derogatory remark about these researchers and I quote your post from above: "just a case of people reinventing fire, and then saying LOOK at me...I just got burned." Aside from the remark being inappropriate, your argument isn't based in fact.

The reason people publish is to leave a permanent record of a phenomenon/pathway/event/etc. so that science can better describe and understand systems AND so research can build on previous knowledge. As Salamander Fan pointed out, "knowing of something" and publishing it aren't the same thing. If these scientists published the first description of the salamander's behavior in their recent paper, it is irrelevant who previously knew about the behavior without taking the time to publish it. A record of the behavior should be published. In this case, the behavior has serious implications regarding the community ecology of an Ozark subterranean system -a topic of which many of us are fans.

Second, I quote you as saying, "All you've presented so far are ad hominem arguments that the people you know didn't know about this." Quite to the contrary, the departure from logic and a failure to understand the argument is yours. I clearly indicated that not one of the reptile or amphibian field guides to the Ozarks, or the states overlapping them, mention guano feeding in the grotto salamander. These are books recording the known biology and ecology of the animals of a region, not what some individual may or may not have known. Please read what I posted. I also indicated that the literature published by R.A. Brandon of the grotto salamander did not mention guano feeding either. Again, literature references, not here say or rumors. I took the time to check the accuracy of your statements in the printed record and your remarks simply didn't check out.

The argument remains the same: I feel that these scientists did what they should have done in reporting a behavior that hadn't been reported prior. You made remarks that suggested the news wasn't news. I'm arguing it hadn't been reported prior and therefore it is news.

With regard to what I interpreted as a derogatory remark, if I misinterpreted your comments please clarify. Perhaps you can explain what you meant with, "Perhaps just a case of people reinventing fire, and then saying LOOK at me...I just got burned...?" Did you really mean that these scientists intentionally rehashed a known piece of knowledge to falsely gain attention or credit?

[Azurerana]

Do you not understand..." I will get back to you next week"? You want bibliographic evidence that this is not a new discovery, you will have to wait. Sorry this has upset you. And, alas, I've seen numerous other examples where scientists take something generally known, and do a study, then claim credit for some breakthrough that really isn't and publish papers to that effect . That is how some people play the science game. I don't know any of the folk involved in this case, have no animus against them, and don't see it as a discredit that they 'followed up' on this.

Another thing: I don't have much respect for scientists who believe all published papers are fact. I've seen too much 'bad science' published (again no slam against the authors here) to read all scientifically published papers as gospel truth. A scientific paper presents some evidence for a particular hypothesis. Whether or not it makes a cogent argument is another thing entirely.

You will hear nothing more from me until next week.

Azurerana

[cavediver7]

Dear Azurerana,

We all anxiously await the citations you have promised. When you do finally get back and are able to look through your library, please provide full citations as I am sure we would all love to obtain and read them ourselves.

Thank You

[Jim Stout]

Greetings to all those interested in this topic.
Since I was the person mentioned in the newspaper article, I wanted to speak up. First , the newspaper article doesn't explain what we did. I encourage anyone interested to look at the abstract, www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/openurl.asp?genre=article&id=doi:10.1098/rspb.2005.3341 or contact me for a PDF file of the complete paper.
Second, this is part of an ongoing project and we welcome any information or comments. We have had incredible help and support from cavers and caving societies in Oklahoma, Arkansas and Missouri. Without them this would not have been possible.
Best in the coming year.
Jim Stout
[e-mail]