ways to clean caving ropes

[tagkaver]

i have tried several ways to wash my caving ropes, and i just wanted to see how other cavers out there have found to be the best ways to wash their ropes. ;D

[Brad Tipton]

I have a BOKAT rope washer that you connect a water hose to. It really works well at getting the grit out of the sheath. The washing machine method is just a mess. I have cleaned them with a pressure washer in the past, but that is rather time consuming. The rope washer is the best method I have ever found. If I wash a rope really well with it I can almost see the white.............

[Brian Roebuck]

Using a pressure washer or even a rope washer makes me wonder if you are forcing tiny grti particles into the rope core through the sheath since the water is blasting from the outside towards the inside. I don't know of any other way to clean a rope but this does seem to be not the best thing as far as damaging the rope core which is where most of its strength is.

[Sharon Faulkner]

Not advocating this as a best practice, but a rope rigged in a waterfall will go a long way toward washing mud/grit from a rope. And pretty easy to accomplish around TAG. I've rappelled on many a rope that has been cleaned in this manner.

[tagkaver]

yeah that usually does a pretty good job at cleaning a dirty rope

[madratdan]

I made a rope washer using PVC pipe fittings and a sprinkler nozzle. I copied the design from a grotto member and it works pretty good. It looks just like the BOKAT that the vendors sell, except for the nozzle design I added, which puts out a pretty even and concentrated spray pattern. I do it in a greenhouse with a 60' bench running down one side, so I can spread the rope out to inspect and dry it. I've also thrown it in a mesh bag after washing it and run it through the washing machine with no soap. That works pretty good too.

[Brad Tipton]

drbeaner said:

Using a pressure washer or even a rope washer makes me wonder if you are forcing tiny grti particles into the rope core through the sheath since the water is blasting from the outside towards the inside. I don't know of any other way to clean a rope but this does seem to be not the best thing as far as damaging the rope core which is where most of its strength is.

You are absolutely correct about the pressure washer. But, I wouldn't think the rope washer I use would be able to force any more grit through the sheath than rapelling on it while it's muddy.

I do recall the rope washer as being the NCRC method of cleaning rope back in 98 and 99 when we spent hours washing ropes after the mock rescue.

[Tony Anders]

I think we would probably make something like the home made washer discussed above. If you could put it on a rack of some kind and affix it to the ground you could wash fairly easy.

www.knick-knack.com/howto/climb/build-a-climbing-rope-washer.html

[NZcaver]

Rope washers work well if you need to get dirt off climbing ropes (like the link in the last post describes). Muddy caving ropes take a little more work - every inch of rope needs to be worked back and forth. Securing the rope washer in place should help, but there's still a significant amount of effort involved in this method.

I normally chain ropes and throw them in the washing machine with a small amount of soap. Sometimes I soak them in water first. Occasionally I've used pressure washers to clean rope and other gear, and found they work great too. The issue with forcing grit particles into the kern and scissoring the fibers from the inside may be overstated - especially in the context of all the other use-and-abuse factors inflicted on caving ropes. As far as I'm aware, there are no reported incidents or controlled testing results where particles "washed" into the kern have been proven to significantly reduce rope strength (independent of any damage to the sheath). No "trail of dead bodies" so to speak.

Try cutting one of your old, tired caving ropes and checking the fibers in the kern. I'm betting it's relatively clean and undamaged, even if you've regularly used a pressure washer to clean it.

[tncaveres]

You are correct about the Rope washer being the NCRCway.
The last 2 yrs we have used them to clean some very muddy ropes. There is alot of mud in them Alabama caves ;D
They have one mounted on a saw horse & 2 that a person can stand on while 2 others run the rope back & forth through it.
Works pretty good.

[Chad Dubuisson]

In our opinion, the best way to clean your ropes is with a pressure washer. There have never been any findings to indicate that the particles get punched deeper into the rope, causing premature wear. Bruce Smith, author of the book On Rope cleans his miles of rope in a huge mat on the driveway with his pressure washer, it gets them almost back to clean as new. The myths about pressure washers being bad for ropes turns out are unfounded. Our new website will debunk it & 20 other myths of ropework once up & running soon.

I myself have built a rope cleaning box, which is bolted onto the wall. I have a few directional pulleys inside, some brushes & some water from the water hose. I just fake a rope out on the ground below it, feed one end in, pull it through, & start pulling. the rope goes in muddy, comes out pretty clean, I usually run it through twice to get it really clean. Works good.


Chad Dubuisson
Production Manager
On Rope 1, Inc.

[NZcaver]

verticaver said:

In our opinion, the best way to clean your ropes is with a pressure washer. There have never been any findings to indicate that the particles get punched deeper into the rope, causing premature wear. Bruce Smith, author of the book On Rope cleans his miles of rope in a huge mat on the driveway with his pressure washer, it gets them almost back to clean as new. The myths about pressure washers being bad for ropes turns out are unfounded. Our new website will debunk it & 20 other myths of ropework once up & running soon.

Thanks for the info - good to know. Can't say cleaning my ropes and gear with a power washer has ever kept me awake nights, but apparently some people are more skeptical than others about this method.

Hopefully one of those other myths you debunk will be that old wives' tale about how you shouldn't use a right handed Ascension as your upper ascender in a frog system...

[madratdan]

Welcome to the Discussion Board Chad. Thanks for adding your thoughts on power washing ropes. Can't wait to hear about these other myths you debunk on your web site. Can you post a link, when the web site is ready?

Hopefully one of those other myths you debunk will be that old wives' tale about how you shouldn't use a right handed Ascension as your upper ascender in a frog system...

Hey NZ,
If you use a basic as your upper descender, you save weight and blow right past that old wives tale.

[NZcaver]

madratdan said:

Hey NZ,
If you use a basic as your upper descender, you save weight and blow right past that old wives tale.

Very true, Dan.

And without straying too far off topic... suffice it to say for some of us the pros of saving a tiny amount of weight and bulk don't quite outweigh the cons of losing the eronomics of that nice handle on the ascender. Of course, your opinion may vary.

[madratdan]

Like Mikie's says.........it all depends on the cave. He also told me the handle is a crutch.......your suppose to be using your legs, not the handle..........took all the arguement out of which handle for me to use......but the gold matches my outfit better.

[Tim White]

Thanks for the post, Chad. Now I can finally come of the closet and admit that I wash my ropes with a pressure washer. and have for years.

After retiring some old ropes, I cut them up and inspected the core strands for all of the "mud and particles" that had been washed in through the sheath. Well...PMI's rope sheath is tight enough that all of the core strand samples were pure white.

One must understand the these ropes were used a LOT over the years and often were so muddy an a trip that it was almost impossible to get an ascender to move up! Muddy, with such grit that stainless steel bars wore quickly. Pressure washed them to almost white.

So be careful...if you are on a trip with me and Berta, you may want to ask if the rope you are on is mine or hers. Berta hand washers her ropes in the tub. ;D

[NZcaver]

madratdan said:

Like Mikie's says.........it all depends on the cave. He also told me the handle is a crutch.......your suppose to be using your legs, not the handle..........took all the arguement out of which handle for me to use......but the gold matches my outfit better.

The handle is more than just a crutch - and, as you well know, your legs never do 100% of the work in the climb stroke of the Frog. More like around 85%, but of course this may vary. Try climbing without your arms some time - bet you can't.

Interestingly I did try it once - I was simulating the loss of arm function during a small party rescue practice (dislocated shoulder/broken collar bone, if I recall). I had a crew above me use one cord to lift my upper ascender, then use a piece of rope looped under my butt to help me up each stroke. It worked fairly well, actually.

In normal use, I still like to keep my right hand in the ascender handle - and my left hand cupped around the back of the frame up by the cam. It's just more comfortable for me that way. It's also nice to have that handle when negotiating nasty edges (that haven't been bolted and rebelayed). Just for kicks I tried replacing my Ascension with the Basic for a while, but it really wasn't for me.

So when you say the gold matches your outfit.. do you mean your chest Croll, or are you saying that you DO use a (lefty) handled ascender as your upper? (As far as I know, the Petzl Basic was never made in gold.) Personally I like my blue righty Ascension - it matches my helmet.

[Chad Dubuisson]

Thanks for welcoming me onboard folks. Good to be here.

You know, about the ascenders vs croll thing, There's really only one reason to use the left handled ascender when frogging, but I must admit, mine is a right handled ascender, so I'm a hypocrite.

On our current website, www.onrope1.com, in the ascender systems link, under the frog, Bruce gives his reasoning about what that is:

"Why a left handed ascender with a Frog System?

During the stand-up motion, the Croll rises to meet the handled ascender. If large steps are desired and the foot cord is short, there is a possibility that the two ascenders could become jammed. Using the Left Ascension with the Croll will provide the easiest arrangement for freeing up the jam.


Notice both bodies are away and turned free of each other in this configuration should they touch.

So does that answer the question? I don't know. I use a righty on my frog, always have & have never in 15 years had an issue with the croll jamming out the upper ascender. I don't plan to change when I buy one of those new ABC handled ascenders. Man they are sweet.

[tncaveres]

I climb with a lefty & have a righty on my harness as an extra point of attachment when changing over.

[NZcaver]

verticaver said:

On our current website, www.onrope1.com, in the ascender systems link, under the frog, Bruce gives his reasoning about what that is:

"Why a left handed ascender with a Frog System?

During the stand-up motion, the Croll rises to meet the handled ascender. If large steps are desired and the foot cord is short, there is a possibility that the two ascenders could become jammed. Using the Left Ascension with the Croll will provide the easiest arrangement for freeing up the jam.


Notice both bodies are away and turned free of each other in this configuration should they touch.

So does that answer the question? I don't know. I use a righty on my frog, always have & have never in 15 years had an issue with the croll jamming out the upper ascender.

Good to know you're happy using your righty, like some of the rest of us. ;D The quote from your website does not answer the question - it was the exact reason for my mentioning the whole lefty/righty thing when you opened the door to debunking myths!

The hole in the logic of that statement is the "footcord is short" bit. THAT's the problem - not the right handed ascender. As I'm sure you know, lengths are critical in a Frog system - and should be precisely adjusted for each person. Plus if the ascenders do get really jammed up (which I've intentionally tried), I've found that freeing a righty isn't all that much harder than freeing a lefty.

I did some informal testing and talked to various Froggers about this a couple of years ago, all resulting in a short article I wrote for my grotto newsletter. Bottom line - there are happy and safe Froggers using lefties and righties. In many cases the ascender suits one's dexterity, but in some instances a person may feel more comfortable using the opposite hand. This is all fine.

The only problem I have is when I hear supposedly learned instructors and mentors advising newer cavers NOT to use a righty - no matter what their preference. In at least one known case, this has contributed to an on-rope "incident" where a left ascender was being used by a right-handed beginner. In the absence of close supervision, the person turned it around (cam facing away from them) and slid it up against the sloping rock face. The safety catch caught on the rock, causing the ascender to disconnect from the rope when pushed up. (No harm done, luckily.)

Food for thought.

[madratdan]

I think we are all on the same page here......you use what you feel most comfortable with, be it left, right or no handle. I must admit where I cave we don't do a lot of rope work. When we do, the ropes are usually fixed in place and we share vert. kits. I own several left and right ascenders and some times it is which ever one I find is the one I use. (I also take them rafting.) Lately I've been using Mike's kit which is a basic. For our short climbs, it really doesn't matter what you use.......your not on rope long enough to care. We also cheat around here and use pantines and figure 8's.

The hole in the logic of that statement is the "footcord is short" bit. THAT's the problem - not the right handed ascender. As I'm sure you know, lengths are critical in a Frog system - and should be precisely adjusted for each person.

I agree with you there NZ. If your ascenders are coming in contact with each other, something is not adjusted right. It could also happen using the wrong harness with a high croll attach point.

Did someone mention we were off topic

I do end up changing out some of the fixed ropes in Williams canyon from time to time. Next time I'm taking my pressure washer to them before running them through the good old rope cleaner, to get the big chunks off.

[Chad Dubuisson]

I certainly understand your point of view & agree. There's really no big problem there with using a righty or a lefty.