|
Post by Sharon Faulkner on Dec 23, 2006 18:08:33 GMT -5
New topic generated from discussion in the Is it time for NSS rappelling certification? thread. I don't want to appear overly critical here, but what on earth does going to El Cap or rappelling a 3000 foot drop have to do with caving? Hi NZ, Interesting comment. You are not the first person I've heard question the relation of big wall rappelling to caving. A similar discussion has recently taken place elsewhere. SRT has its roots in caving, as well as a great deal of vertical equipment was either invented or perfected by cavers, for cavers. It is common to find cavers rappelling El Cap, Whitesides, the Black Canyon, and at West Virginia's Bridge Day. There is also a section on big wall drops in On Rope, the first edition. I've always thought of big wall rappelling as being intertwined with cavers and caving...but maybe not. Something to think on anyway.
|
|
|
Post by happykillmore on Dec 23, 2006 19:54:09 GMT -5
I have enjoyed your posts on other discussions. I got into vertical caving so i could explore further into caves. Found out i like the open areas and fit into the wilderness a little better than i do in caves. Also i dont like crawling on my knees in the sand. But i joined the NSS over 20 years ago. Everyone i know that rappels is or has been a member of the NSS. Especially the Tall Wall rappellers.
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 24, 2006 1:29:05 GMT -5
Nothing to talk about. 'SRT IS TAG'! No matter HOW you slice it. I'm not at all surprised that a New Zealand caver made that statement. I mean how far is New Zealand from TAG anyway? Rebel
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 24, 2006 1:37:16 GMT -5
"Tall Wall rappellers" Sound like some gnarly dudes! Is that Cuddington's band of thugs? ;D Rebel
|
|
|
Post by happykillmore on Dec 24, 2006 1:43:12 GMT -5
Sir yes Sir. And Merry Christmas Rebel. I missed you.
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 24, 2006 2:19:46 GMT -5
Vertical Bill....he's a character! I moved some big rock to open a pit above Sherwood many years back. I excitedly rapped to the bottom (40'+) only to find the number 2177 on the wall. Dammit Bill. I've been here, just lurking waiting for someone to dangle their toes in the water. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, Happy and all the posters/lurkers out there! Rebel
|
|
|
Post by Azurerana on Dec 24, 2006 14:10:41 GMT -5
Nothing to talk about. 'SRT IS TAG'! No matter HOW you slice it. I'm not at all surprised that a New Zealand caver asked made that statement. I mean how far is New Zealand from TAG anyway? Rebel I'm in Missouri, and quite frankly, I had the same question. Nuff of our people go to TAG and Mexico, but I think the connection is the risky behavior involved, and lack of fear of heights. I, on the other hand, will crawl into anything I can reasonably fit into, but my motto, since age 21 has been, "You can't fall off the floor." I've only almost died twice, and both have been vertical falls--once falling down a slippery set of stairs into a commercial sinkhole/karst window/underground lake at age 13, and one on an out of control free fall rappel on a 60 ft. bluff in Kansas City on beaners and bars. (Being introduced to vertical by an Eagle Scout, at age 20). I've since rappelled with a rack, and a figure 8 and own minimal vertical gear, but still believe 'You can't fall off the floor." Glad other people haven't had my experiences.
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 24, 2006 20:55:07 GMT -5
"I'm in Missouri, and quite frankly, I had the same question. Nuff of our people go to TAG and Mexico, but I think the connection is the risky behavior involved, and lack of fear of heights."
You did say Missouri. I said TennesseeAlabamaGeorgia. I'm surprised that there are quite a few practicing SRT that are unaware of its origins. I don't understand the "risky behavior involved" part of your post. As far as "lack of fear of heights" goes I don't believe I've met the caver that could out do a climber. Dan Osman,RIP, comes to mind. The first time I rappelled El Cap a young lad topped out guiding a party up the nose. He came over and inquired if our rope went to the valley floor. I said yes. He then asked if he could rappel our rope rather than have to descend the east ledges. I told him he needed one of these (holding up a rack) and that none of us was going to lend him ours. Deterred he then proceeded to load two haul bags with lightweight stuff,clothes/sleeping bags and loosely tie the bag closed. No one else paid much attention but as I had done some climbing I was aware of what was about to happen next. The young climber grabbed the two haul bags and walked over to the edge at our rig point. He then stood on a slab that sloped 20 degrees into the void, planted his feet leaning toward the abyss and swung the haul bags over the edge. All this caught the cavers by surprise and I think most were sure the climber was about to commit suicide. ;D The climber let go of the bags and I watched as the load sailed back and forth across our line a couple of times only to slam down 10' in front of four climbers waiting to start a route. Of course, throwing haul bags is illegal now. There was also the time some caver/climber/hillbillys attacked the valley with some extra long climbing ropes (270') and were wowing the locals with 120' falls. The locals had the audacity to ask the rednecks if they were scared of falling. The reds showed 'em! I think Osman cranked up sometime after that........coincidence ? I say climbers got cavers beat in the no fear of height dept. Perhaps it's all in control and not really a question of fear or a lack thereof. Rebel
|
|
NZcaver
Beginner
U.S. Caver
Posts: 140
|
Post by NZcaver on Dec 25, 2006 7:30:06 GMT -5
New topic generated from discussion in the Is it time for NSS rappelling certification? thread. I don't want to appear overly critical here, but what on earth does going to El Cap or rappelling a 3000 foot drop have to do with caving? Hi NZ, Interesting comment. You are not the first person I've heard question the relation of big wall rappelling to caving. A similar discussion has recently taken place elsewhere. SRT has its roots in caving, as well as a great deal of vertical equipment was either invented or perfected by cavers, for cavers. It is common to find cavers rappelling El Cap, Whitesides, the Black Canyon, and at West Virginia's Bridge Day. There is also a section on big wall drops in On Rope, the first edition. I've always thought of big wall rappelling as being intertwined with cavers and caving...but maybe not. Something to think on anyway. Since you opened by quoting me, Sharon, I feel I owe you a reply. I'm not naive. I realise virtually all of us vertical cavers also practice/play on rope above ground too. I also have a reasonable grasp of the origins of SRT, and of the interwoven history of techniques and equipment used in vertical caving, climbing, and technical rescue. For what it's worth, my first EVER caving trips were both vertical ones - I was already SRT equipped and capable (at a basic level) thanks to time spent practicing above ground and in mines. You might say that SRT lead me to caving, and not the other way around. My question above was asked in the context of the thread in which it was posted. Happykillmore was contemplating the benefits of having an NSS rappelling certification introduced, at least in part so he can be comfortable with the skills of his certified companions when he goes rappelling El Cap or another big wall. I was simply questioning the logic of this link. While many skills are the same in both disciplines, the two are not quite the same thing. I agree that vertical cavers probably exhibit better big wall rappelling and fixed rope climbing skills than the average short-haul rock climber. But hypothetically, if the NSS were to introduce a rappelling certification, I would hope the emphasis would be on vertical caving. This training may not adequately prepare one for big wall drops, nor should it. I hope that helps to make my point clear as mud.
|
|
NZcaver
Beginner
U.S. Caver
Posts: 140
|
Post by NZcaver on Dec 25, 2006 7:45:35 GMT -5
Nothing to talk about. 'SRT IS TAG'! No matter HOW you slice it. I'm not at all surprised that a New Zealand caver made that statement. I mean how far is New Zealand from TAG anyway? Rebel No. You might get away with "TAG IS SRT" - but by claiming the other you're simply deluding yourself. There's a lot more to the evolution and continuing development of Single Rope Techniques than JUST the TAG caving region of the US. And before you ask - yes, I have been vertical caving in TAG. Have you been vertical caving in New Zealand? Since you "weren't at all surprised that a New Zealand caver made that statement" - I should probably add that I'm an NSS member who lives and caves in the US, and I'm currently just back visiting NZ. It may scare you to know that I regularly train US cavers (and others) in vertical caving and cave rescue techniques. And regarding your geography question - I suggest you visit your local library and obtain an atlas. (It's the big book with all the pretty countries mapped out in it.)
|
|
Brian Roebuck
Site Admin
Caver
Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
Posts: 2,732
|
Post by Brian Roebuck on Dec 25, 2006 8:29:50 GMT -5
Hey NZ, How 'bout linking a few choice photos of New Zealand when you get a chance for us poor ole TAG cavers to drool over? We would appreciate it! Caves, scenery, whatever...
Merry Christmas!
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 25, 2006 22:05:13 GMT -5
"You might get away with "TAG IS SRT" - but by claiming the other you're simply deluding yourself." What other... I'm confused? "There's a lot more to the evolution and continuing development of Single Rope Techniques than JUST the TAG caving region of the US" Never said TAG was ALL there was. Technique and equipment has been developed all over the world. TAG is where SRT got going in a big way. Climbers rappel, arborists rappel, cavers rappel and there are others. Cavers took the art of descent and ascent and turned the rope into the "nylon highway". No sport has evolved ascending and descending technique as applied in big drop SRT to the art it is today more than caving,TAG caving. Perhaps in the "claiming the other" you refer to the NSS and SRT? If you want to leave TAG out of the NSS then I'll agree. If you start caving in TAG then you find out quickly that you must employ vertical skills to reach much of TAG underground. Taggers honed their skills underground to 600' and then set their sights on the longest drops available. These drops happened to be above ground but gravity was in full effect. We plan on finding mile deep drops in caves but it may take awhile. Now THAT might be a delusion. ;D "And before you ask - yes, I have been vertical caving in TAG. Have you been vertical caving in New Zealand?" No, never been to New Zealand. Vertical caving big there? "I should probably add that I'm an NSS member who lives and caves in the US, and I'm currently just back visiting NZ" Where you are from is really a moot point in this discussion. The "not surprised from a NZ caver" was a cheap shot. "It may scare you to know that I regularly train US cavers (and others) in vertical caving and cave rescue techniques." I don't know....it might ;D but hey you aren't training my kids and I don't get involved with rescue like I used too. Good luck with that! "And regarding your geography question - I suggest you visit your local library and obtain an atlas. (It's the big book with all the pretty countries mapped out in it.)" If it was not one of the bright colored countries then I will not remember it. Rebel
|
|
NZcaver
Beginner
U.S. Caver
Posts: 140
|
Post by NZcaver on Dec 26, 2006 3:44:25 GMT -5
Hey NZ, How 'bout linking a few choice photos of New Zealand when you get a chance for us poor ole TAG cavers to drool over? We would appreciate it! Caves, scenery, whatever... Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas, Dr Beaner! Life has been a little busy recently - so it's been a while since I've updated photo websites and such. Sorry. But if you check out the NSS News from January 06, you'll see a bunch of good NZ caving shots (thanks to Dave B). Don't get me wrong, though. There are some nice TAG caves I drool over too...
|
|
NZcaver
Beginner
U.S. Caver
Posts: 140
|
Post by NZcaver on Dec 26, 2006 4:11:03 GMT -5
---> You claimed "SRT IS TAG" - which I interpreted as "if you're not a TAG caver, you don't know SRT." Flipping it around just implies all (or most) caving in TAG involves SRT - which it more-or-less does. ---> OK, then I must have misinterpreted you saying "SRT IS TAG" ---> Yes - SRT caving and all! ---> No biggie. ---> Thanks. Other people seem pretty happy with me teaching their kids, so I guess that's good enough for me. ---> Well it's mostly green, so I suppose it depends if you consider green as a "bright" color.
|
|
|
Post by Azurerana on Dec 26, 2006 9:06:52 GMT -5
"I'm in Missouri, and quite frankly, I had the same question. Nuff of our people go to TAG and Mexico, but I think the connection is the risky behavior involved, and lack of fear of heights." You did say Missouri. I said TennesseeAlabamaGeorgia. I'm surprised that there are quite a few practicing SRT that are unaware of its origins. I don't understand the "risky behavior involved" part of your post. As far as "lack of fear of heights" goes I don't believe I've met the caver that could out do a climber. Dan Osman,RIP, comes to mind. Rebel I said Missouri to explain that though I wasn't in TAG, I know about the pit situation in TAG and Mexico. If you don't understand that 98% of the world thinks climbing/rappelling is risky behavior, I'm not sure I can enlighten you. There are people who don't fear heights. My husband for one--he respects them. He, on the other hand, is claustrophobic. I am the opposite. If a person doesn't have some rational comprehension that putting your life on a rope is risky behavior, and that exposed heights are to be respected as potentially dangerous, I'm not sure they should either be on rope, or around me. If people want to fall off El Capitan, or do Golandrinas on rope, more power to them. But their families shouldn't go whining to shut down such places when something happens to them.
|
|
|
Post by Sharon Faulkner on Dec 26, 2006 10:34:23 GMT -5
Since you opened by quoting me, Sharon, I feel I owe you a reply. Not necessary, but thanks for elaborating on your original statement. As I said earlier, you are not the first person I've heard question the relation of big wall rappelling to caving in recent weeks. Just the first person I've seen express the thought here on this forum. I didn't want to hijack the certification thread so started a new thread on the topic. My question above was asked in the context of the thread in which it was posted. Happykillmore was contemplating the benefits of having an NSS rappelling certification introduced, at least in part so he can be comfortable with the skills of his certified companions when he goes rappelling El Cap or another big wall. I was simply questioning the logic of this link. In the context of the certification thread, I took Happy's comments to mean that he would be considering cavers as El Cap rappelling companions as opposed to non-cavers. But, this was entirely my presumption and may not be what he intended at all. I hope that helps to make my point clear as mud. Yep, your point is about as clear as mine....but it still makes for reasonable discussion on the topic. ;D ;D
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 26, 2006 13:39:47 GMT -5
"If you don't understand that 98% of the world thinks climbing/rappelling is risky behavior, I'm not sure I can enlighten you." Well, I would guess that more than half the world is nuts from the get-go. I'm more worried about who's driving and voting than rappelling. You probably would not make a good spokesperson in regard to SRT. "If a person doesn't have some rational comprehension that putting your life on a rope is risky behavior, and that exposed heights are to be respected as potentially dangerous, I'm not sure they should either be on rope, or around me." Don't exactly know where you are going with that. As I mentioned above you might save more lives if you hit the drivers with the last message. Sounds like you have some irrational fear of heights you want to project on others. Ten feet is plenty enough to kill a person. I don't get the "around me" part but I'm pretty sure no one here will worry about your proximity when they are doing vertical work. Rebel
|
|
|
Post by happykillmore on Dec 26, 2006 16:00:42 GMT -5
Sharon Everyone that i have rappelled with started by caving and were members of the NSS with the exception of a few fireman that were in search and rescue. My NSS companions were more experienced on rope than were the fireman i have met. Though i myself have not been interested in search and rescue as there are many qualified people in that line of work. I'll leave that to those that have a passion for it. All of the big wall rappellers i know started caving , were members of the NSS and gravitated toward the vertical side more than the caving side and went above ground looking for larger walls.
"Happykillmore was contemplating the benefits of having an NSS rappelling certification introduced, at least in part so he can be comfortable with the skills of his certified companions when he goes rappelling El Cap or another big wall. I was simply questioning the logic of this link."
I have one last thought on that but i will post it in my own thread. I dont want to change the subject here.
|
|
|
Post by Sharon Faulkner on Dec 26, 2006 16:35:14 GMT -5
All of the big wall rappellers i know started caving , were members of the NSS and gravitated toward the vertical side more than the caving side and went above ground looking for larger walls. Yes, that's been my experience too. I imagine we know several of the same ones.
|
|
|
Post by Azurerana on Dec 26, 2006 21:30:05 GMT -5
"If you don't understand that 98% of the world thinks climbing/rappelling is risky behavior, I'm not sure I can enlighten you." Well, I would guess that more than half the world is nuts from the get-go. I'm more worried about who's driving and voting than rappelling. You probably would not make a good spokesperson in regard to SRT. Never claimed to be a spokesperson for SRT. Quite the opposite. But just because I'm not an advocate doesn't mean I haven't tried it, (I have) and don't have some knowledge of SRT. I've never met anyone who wanted to rappel or ascend in a car. (Except miners in mancars, of course.) It's not irrational. It's based on personal experience. If you've been bit by a dog, being wary around dogs is not irrational. I wouldn't have that fear if not for the falls. No, no one has to be concerned about me when they are doing vertical caving. Chances are, I'll be above ground. I can't even be alongside the top of a bluff without some trepidation. Remember, I said, "you cannot fall off the floor." Have fun with your ropework, and be safe. Best wishes, Azurerana
|
|
|
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 27, 2006 13:26:26 GMT -5
"I've never met anyone who wanted to rappel or ascend in a car. (Except miners in mancars, of course.)"
Just to clear this up a bit............ what I was getting at is that it is most likely more dangerous on the road to the cave than on rope in the cave. Your "risky behavior" message would be better spent on educating drivers to drive and voters to vote. SRT is far less risky than many things we participate in. Rebel
|
|
NZcaver
Beginner
U.S. Caver
Posts: 140
|
Post by NZcaver on Dec 27, 2006 17:57:49 GMT -5
" Just to clear this up a bit............ what I was getting at is that it is most likely more dangerous on the road to the cave than on rope in the cave. Your "risky behavior" message would be better spent on educating drivers to drive and voters to vote. SRT is far less risky than many things we participate in. Rebel Statistically, you're correct. However that line is the same used with all "risk sports" - rock climbing, skydiving, scuba diving, etc. Although driving to a cave may, on average, present a bigger risk than vertical caving - both risks need to be managed properly, just in different ways. An overwhelming fear of heights, with the likelihood of resulting irrational behavior, doesn't help any vertical caver (or his/her companions). However, a healthy respect for the dangers involved with heights, falls, ropework, etc can be used to one's advantage. For example, it encourages one to double-check one's own equipment, and that of other cavers - whether asked for or not. I would even venture to say those who proclaim and demonstrate they have "absolutely no fear of heights" are the type of individuals who are more likely to be reckless and possibly even cause (or receive) injuries because of this. I would rather not cave with people like that. Just because we cavers may be more likely to die on the road than in a cave, it doesn't mean we shouldn't assess and minimize the risk as best we can on each and every trip. I agree driver education should be a thorough and ongoing process too, given priority for it's potential for saving lives. The same should apply to caver education, particularly that involving vertical skills. As for your voter education - well, I won't touch that one with a barge pole...
|
|