The Relation of Big Wall Rappelling to Caving?

[eyecave]

hi nz......i have already expressed my opinion on what aspect of the training of the caver who died at el cap did that resulted in his death..............the autopsy report supports my statements......find it, read it, and learn.......

another death duringa big wall rappel recently occurred and its victum was primarily classified as a sportsman as a rockclimber.........i am not tackey enough to employ that fact to either bolster cavers who screw up, nor am i likely to employ it to deman rockclimbers who do the same...i mention it for defensive purposes......

.....go root for carlton..........

you are playing a very tackey game of hardball.......

[NZcaver]

eyecave said:

hi nz......i have already expressed my opinion on what aspect of the training of the caver who died at el cap did that resulted in his death.......

Do you mean THIS?

on the subject of philip robinson's death......

i have posted a lot about this subject......but i devoted only one sentence where i stated what i would have done given the situation.....i would have simply made certain that he was trained and that he knew what differences he would have faced.......human life is very fragile.......

i have tried to dissect the probable reason he lost control.....i believe it to be the inability to add bars....and his inexperience with a weighty rope..........see, even at the bottom of the rope with only say 600 feet of distance left, the rope was tethered.........it was a j rap........he may have purposefully gone fast and too late discovered he still couldn't lift it up to stop or do anything else with the rope.......if that was why he cratered...well....his focus should have been on the rack...the rack and the bars were his only hope........by speculating about these situations this sort of knowledge is spread because people want to read about it and assimilate this knowledge via that process...........

also, during this speculation i realized that by examining his left and right hand gloves my theory could be approved or disapproved.......

if only one caver..........or two rock climber's..saves themselves from breaking anything, because it heard something during this discussion,.......and i will even go so far as to say that even if they become one of those guys who refuses to use spacers because they feel threatened...and ends up arguing with me about it publicaleee...................then it was worth it for me to have speculated..........

As there were no names or specifics mentioned in the article I quoted, I obviously had no way of connecting it with this post of yours - especially since you posted it four months ago in a different thread.

.......the autopsy report supports my statements......find it, read it, and learn.......

OK, I'm perfectly willing to do that. How about you give me some pointers on where to find that autopsy report?

another death duringa big wall rappel recently occurred and its victum was primarily classified as a sportsman as a rockclimber.........i am not tackey enough to employ that fact to either bolster cavers who screw up, nor am i likely to employ it to deman rockclimbers who do the same...i mention it for defensive purposes......

.....go root for carlton..........

you are playing a very tackey game of hardball.......

Now I'm confused. So you consider it "tackey" [sic] to label a caver who died rappelling as "a caver"?? And the same applies to rock climbers? Labeling this way is hardly demeaning - it's just calling a spade a spade. So you must really get upset when the media label us cavers as spelunkers...

I really have no idea who "Carlton" is - so I guess I can't "root" for him. But in case you think I'm playing on some other team, let me make things perfectly clear. I am a caver - NOT a rock climber.

You talk about "playing a very tackey game of hardball." Now what is THAT supposed to mean?? I merely quoted an old article that relates to this thread, written by a former NSS Safety and Techniques Chair. I offered no disrespect to the deceased, or to my fellow cavers. My point was that this topic, like so many others, is far from being simple black and white.

Let me simplify this even more for you. Caver = fantastic bigwall rappeller?? Not necessarily................

[happykillmore]

"As fate would have it, while writing this, I just received from John Dill, the Search and Rescue expert at Yosemite, an account of the death of a caver last year on El Capitan. Doing 3000-foot rappel is serious (many say atrocious) business that has little to do with caving technique. I'll spare you the details, but the victim carried no means of ascending, and that may have been a factor in his death."

I didnt find mention of this in the link provided. Please double check.

"hi nz......i have already expressed my opinion on what aspect of the training of the caver who died at el cap did that resulted in his death..............the autopsy report supports my statements......find it, read it, and learn"


I feel as if i am missing out on the beginning of this conversation. I would love to read your opinion and find out which death at El Cap you are referring to.

Please shed some light. I havent been keeping up over the past few weeks so if i am overlooking the obvious just slap me around. Is this from another thread.
Thanx

[NZcaver]

happykillmore said:

"As fate would have it, while writing this, I just received from John Dill, the Search and Rescue expert at Yosemite, an account of the death of a caver last year on El Capitan. Doing 3000-foot rappel is serious (many say atrocious) business that has little to do with caving technique. I'll spare you the details, but the victim carried no means of ascending, and that may have been a factor in his death."

I didnt find mention of this in the link provided. Please double check.

OK, I double checked - and there it was again!

Between half and two-thirds of the way down the page, it's the last paragraph under the heading "Loyalty to Petrified Opinion".

www.bstorage.com/speleo/OnTech/ontech.htm


As best as I can determine, the post where eyecave already "expressed his opinion" about this (four months ago) is reply # 136 on page 6 of the Team Thor: Thor Expedition 2006 thread. (This is what I quoted in blue in my previous post.)

You're not the only one who would like eyecave to shed some light on his previous post...

[happykillmore]

Thanx NZ.
I just overlooked it several times. That was a good article by William Storage. I agree with much of what he said except for the report on the 92 El Cap accident in which he was only quoating. The only way an ascender or Jumar could have saved him is if he had it on the rope while he was stopped and waiting on Jim to lower his camera. Which of course he should have. This should be a common practice. If that was the point then i agree. Also about his point of buying a rack instead of making one , to my knowledge SMC doesnt make a big rack and if you want a longer rack you have to make one or find a fellow rappeller who makes a few on occassion. I have 2 racks with 10" and 18" of travel. Both are made of 7/16" stainless and are welded. Made by a friend and welded by a professional. I'm not diagreeing with you NZ i just wanted to respond to that article. Other than that ,what he said about cavers being individualistic is true. They customize their gear to their preference and nothing is wrong with that. I just think people are trained by others who sometimes have minimal experience and other times the umbilical cord is severed too soon and they go out on their own and aspire to heights they are not qualified for.
I agree with some of what eyecaver said about only having four bars and if the rope disengages from the fourth bar and it drops it can spell disaster if you are using overexagerated spacing. I cant remember if it was the 82 or 85 trip to El Cap. Some of them only had 4 bars on their rack but they didnt have any spacers. As long as they started with 4 bars it wasnt a problem but when they tried to stop they wished they had put more bars on their rack. Spacers reduce friction but it isnt a problem if you add more bars to increase friction (you must add them before you go on rappell of course). This in my mind is what lead to trajedy on our trip. Some may have had the opinion that they only needed 4 bars at the top but they needed spacers too. I assure you noone was trained that way. I know i am repeating myself from other post's but if we drill in the truth before those who are seaking info develope dangerous practices we are all better off. If a few more people die on large walls they will lose their lives. But also we may lose our priveledges. One is worse but both are bad. I only use 1" of spacing between the first and second bar (just enough to keep from pinching the rope) and i never use less than 5 bars. I wouldnt recommend that anyone go below those specifications. If you generally go over the edge with 4 bars then you probably dont need any spacers.
Did the accident at Mt. Thor happen while he was on rappell? I thought he fell while hiking up. Are they really thinking of banning rappelling at Thor?

[Tim White]

happykillmore said:

Did the accident at Mt. Thor happen while he was on rappell? I thought he fell while hiking up.

He was on rope, not hiking. Had just been "instructed" on the use of the rack.

[happykillmore]

Thanx Tim;
I dont think Mt Thor is the right place to learn how to use a rack. Probably was using someone else's rack which could have had spacers. I certainly don't think banning rappelling is logical either. The park service has yet to aquire the tolerance for rappellers that they have for climbers. Their confidence in the safety of the sports is reversed due to a lack of understanding. If you want to thoroughly secure the rope and rappell down your crazy but if you want to tie it to your buddy and climb up its seems to make sense.

[NZcaver]

happykillmore said:

Thanx NZ...

Great post, Happy K!

In general, I agree with your comments. I can even agree with much of what eyecave said in his earlier Mt Thor posts, albeit without any personal knowledge of the incident he refers to. When I posted the Bill Storage comment, I didn't connect it with that previous topic of discussion.

Apparently I offended eyecave in some obscure way, which was certainly not my intention. Oh, well. C'est la vie...

[eyecave]

the guy i am referring to nz is a guy who cratered at elcap a long time ago....or maybe the same guy you are talking about......listen and learn:

factor one: jack of all trades (sports) master of none type....

factor two: trained by old school guys unfamiliar with modern techniques.

this combo lead to a person who thought that the way you slow a rappel is by gripping the rope harder and dragging it against your thigh and butt...........and, that you stop and add a bar when the friction on your right gloved hand gets great enough.....

follow me so far?

finding: grooves in the thigh and hands of the deceased caused by rope friction.....

i have no idea where i made this post in this forum; but it was in this forum and it was on the topic of a el-cap-caver rappeler death........

FOR THOSE WHO SEEM TO THINK THAT RAPPING EL CAP OR THOR IS NOT SIMILAR TO THE BALCONY OR ATTIC RIGGING SENSATIONS...OR THE DICOMATIOUS CLOSED INFINITE DEPTH WEIRDNESS FELT IN THE SHAFT.........who cares what you think......

hey nz......if you are not ready to accept responsibility for tacky comments don't pretend that you are just repeating what someone else said, and use it as a defense, without mentioning it in the original tackey comments you made that elicited the critique.......that is a common tactic called deflecting responsibility.....tackey.....very .....i think that referring to a big wall rappeller as a climber-caver crossbreed insults the entire rock climbing community.....

hey nz......go root for carlton?.....you don't get that?.......you say you are from new zeland and yet you are apparently not familiar with the australian football league?.....carlton won the wooden spoon last year!!.....or they shoulda....are you connected to the internet?...

and on another subject: let me simplify it for you:

TAG caver=SRT + big wall=cavers + TAG cavers - ROCK CLIMBERS= the members of each big wall expedition so far......so there..... .....

[happykillmore]

"the guy i am referring to nz is a guy who cratered at elcap"

eyecaver
while your observation is accurate , your tone is harsh. Please remember that the deceased has family and friends in the rappelling community and they may be members on this forum. Please extend the due respect to the deceased. I certainly hope i have done so in my post's.
Thanx

[NZcaver]

Eyecave, eyecave... your mind certainly does work in mysterious ways, doesn't it?

I return from a month of caving to find your last charming post waiting for me. What's a guy to do? I hate to prolong the agony of this misunderstanding, but my failing to respond might be taken to imply that I accept your rambling accusations - which I don't.

But first... a (sincere) thank you for sharing that accident analysis - despite your rather tacky use of the word "cratered":

the guy i am referring to nz is a guy who cratered at elcap a long time ago....or maybe the same guy you are talking about......listen and learn:

factor one: jack of all trades (sports) master of none type....

factor two: trained by old school guys unfamiliar with modern techniques.

this combo lead to a person who thought that the way you slow a rappel is by gripping the rope harder and dragging it against your thigh and butt...........and, that you stop and add a bar when the friction on your right gloved hand gets great enough.....

follow me so far?

finding: grooves in the thigh and hands of the deceased caused by rope friction.....

All good information, well explained. But later your comments start to get messy:

hey nz......if you are not ready to accept responsibility for tacky comments don't pretend that you are just repeating what someone else said, and use it as a defense, without mentioning it in the original tackey comments you made that elicited the critique.......that is a common tactic called deflecting responsibility.....tackey.....very .....i think that referring to a big wall rappeller as a climber-caver crossbreed insults the entire rock climbing community.....

I was not deflecting responsibility for my comments - I simply did not write what you say I did. You are using a common tactic called misquoting, also known as putting words in my mouth. Either this was simply a case of mistaken comprehension on your part, or perhaps for some reason you enjoy making inflammatory responses in your own obscure way. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this, and attempt to once again explain myself in simple terms.

I wrote (direct quote):

I sincerely hope times (and techniques) for bigwall/caver crossbreeds have changed a little since then...

But you somehow twisted my words around to this:

i think that referring to a big wall rappeller as a climber-caver crossbreed insults the entire rock climbing community.....

I NEVER mentioned the word "climber" - see? I did NOT refer to any big wall rappeller as a caver-climber crossbreed at any time. Listen carefully now. What I said, in other words, was that I hope any cavers WHO ARE ALSO big wall rappellers use safer techniques now than the deceased apparently did in the incident Bill Storage referred to. And hopefully they do. My use of the word "crossbreed" was not intended to be insulting at all, it was merely used to refer to a person who is multi-disciplinary. Like a hiker/mountaineer crossbreed, for example. Is that clear as mud for you now? (And not quite so tacky, perhaps?)

And then you come up with this little gem:

hey nz......go root for carlton?.....you don't get that?.......you say you are from new zeland and yet you are apparently not familiar with the australian football league?.....carlton won the wooden spoon last year!!.....or they shoulda....are you connected to the internet?...

Obviously I am connected to the internet - no giant mental leap required there. And I do say I'm from New Zealand - because I am. But, alas, I still don't get all this "root for Carlton" stuff. Sadly, I'm not at all familiar with the AUSTRALIAN Football League. And perhaps most tragic of all, I really have no interest in sports where people chase balls around for fun. Not as a participant, nor as a couch potato. Just not my cup of tea, I'm afraid. I COULD look all this up on the internet, but I really do have better things to do with my time.

However, at least allow me to draw this analogy with your Carlton comment.

You are, of course, familiar with the Hogges aren't you? What - you're not? But don't ALL Americans know of this Bermudian football (soccer) team?! They're from one of YOUR neighboring countries, just across the sea. They even speak the same language as you, more or less... sort of like the relationship between Australia and New Zealand. Here's an idea - you look up the Hogges on the internet (like I did), and I'll quiz you later for no reason whatsoever. Then I'll proceed to berate you for not knowing some obscure detail or other, while making a post about a totally unrelated subject. Deal?

Meanwhile... goodbye, good luck, safe caving, happy bigwall rappelling, and enjoy your cerebral gymnastics and whatever else keeps you amused.