Best film for cave pictures

[Tony Anders]

What is the best film speed to use in the cave for cave pictures.

I took some pictures in the cave with my digital camera set ISO to 100 and they seemed to take good. However you can't get a through away camera with ISO 100. Will 400 speed work in the cave or would 200 be best.

[Azurerana]

Digital cameras tend to gather more light than film cameras under low light conditions. (Not sure why, they just do). I never shoot anything other than 200 speed film with PLENTY of flash in a cave.
400 speed film is faster, but the images (even with modern film) are often quite grainy, and I don't like the results. I wouldn't try to shoot anything more than 8 ft away in a cave with a throwaway film camera--there simply isn't enough flash to reach, unless you are in a well-lit show cave.

[Brian Roebuck]

I have heard (and maybe read) that lower speed film gives the richest color but you have to have lots of light to use it as well as a good tri-pod and remote shutter release for clear photos. So you will probably not find 100 speed or lower throw away cameras since they would give novice photographers blurry dark pictures. Point and shoot means you compromise quality of image for ease of use.

Buy a cheap"throw away" 35mm SLR manual film camera and lens such as an old Pentax K-1000 and use it instead of a plastic throw away. Ebay is a good source (or even yard sales) for the millions of old film SLRs out there that can be had for cheap. The optics are worlds better than plastic cameras and you can set them up the way they need to be for cave photography.

[Azurerana]

Dr. Beaner--
Pentax K-1000s all manuals are not cheap or throwaway, even today. They are also not easy to use well, esp. if someone is used to an auto-matic digital camera.

Mr. Eugene has lost the exposure-counter knob off the top of his K-1000, and would just love to have one of those cheap throwaways for spare parts. Not cheap.

If you've got enough light (such as a not-cheap potato-masher flash unit) you can take a photo with a Quaker Oats box and a strip of film. (now, that's cheap!)

By the way, I still use my Pentax WR-90 zoom point and shoot for cave photography. With film. Will do so until they make me coat my own slide film, at which time I will save my pennies for one of those 'once wet and it's toast' digital cameras.

[macaver]

Almost all of the disposable cameras I've used in caves have 400 ASA/ISO film in them... the results are actually quite good if you're not wanting Ultra professional Salon quality pictures.
The answer to your question is that yes for general flash photography in cave 400 is a good film to use. I've friends that loaded their Pentax IQ Zooms with the film and have good results.
Using a tripod and a cable release will work wonders for your other types of cameras (SLR's), otherwise remember to tuck your elbows in tightly to your body as you hold the camera and hold your breath just before you release the shutter... count to five then flash... reason for this is to allow your last breath to dissapate before the flash catches it's ghostly image on film.

[Brian Roebuck]

azurerana said:

Dr. Beaner--
Pentax K-1000s all manuals are not cheap or throwaway, even today. They are also not easy to use well, esp. if someone is used to an auto-matic digital camera.

Mr. Eugene has lost the exposure-counter knob off the top of his K-1000, and would just love to have one of those cheap throwaways for spare parts. Not cheap.

If you've got enough light (such as a not-cheap potato-masher flash unit) you can take a photo with a Quaker Oats box and a strip of film. (now, that's cheap!)

By the way, I still use my Pentax WR-90 zoom point and shoot for cave photography. With film. Will do so until they make me coat my own slide film, at which time I will save my pennies for one of those 'once wet and it's toast' digital cameras.

Yes the term cheap is relative. Looks like ebay might get you a K-1000 for $50-$75 if you shop carefully - so they are more expensive than I thought. They are tough old cameras and are built well. But compare that with a digital SLR and it is indeed cheap! ;D

If you look at the cost of using disposable cameras over time an inexpensive older film SLR becomes economically attractive. It is also superior in many ways and you can find used lenses to suit your needs. It really depends on how many photos you expect to take and how much time you want to invest in learning how to use a manual camera.

Quaker Oats boxes are about as bad in wet caves as digital cameras! If you are really paranoid about water you can buy a horribly expensive diving case for your camera and sleaze that up with cave mud in the process. Just be careful and use a pelican case or other waterproof container.

For those that don't want to use manual cameras there are older automatic SLR cameras out there too. Using SLR film cameras with ISO 100 film and detached flashes with some slaves etc can give great results with lots of work and practice. There are very good books out there such as "On Caves and Cameras" that can be of great help to novice and experienced cave photographers alike.

One thing you can say about disposable cameras is that they are handy, small, cheap, and you don't have to worry about taking care of them too much. As some have said 400 film isn't too bad in caves. All you really have to do is get enough light on your subject and you can get decent results with some practice, thought, and luck.

[Azurerana]

One thing you will lose with 400 speed film is the mid distance image. They tend to pick up well lit parts of the cave quite well, and make the rest of the cave to to black. This is also the case when using 400 speed film outside-- shadow detail which can be picked up with 100 or 200 speed film will simply go dark with 400.

If you like that, (high contrast photos) you'll be happy. If not, you won't.

[L Roebuck]

Might as well throw in my 2 cents, eah?

As for me, I always liked the quality of 100 or 200 speed film for cave photo's. 400 Speed film seemed to be grainy and loose some contrast to me.

It seems the One-Time-Use cameras just have 400 and 800 speed film. I did a quick search and apparently the 'disposable' cameras can be refilled with film and used again. Gosh, I have no clue if this works or not but am posting the link to the article for those who may want to read it.

How to re-use Kodak MAX One-Time-Use disposable camera?

Has any caver already reused a one-time-use camera? If so, please let us know how it functioned.

[Brian Roebuck]

I suspect the waterproof ones might be better for caves. The companies that crack open the cameras usually recycle the plastic bodies etc. Often the slightly used batteries out of these throw-away cameras can be bought cheap! If you can find a person working in a film processing place they might be able to hook you up with batteries and camera parts really cheap! Add your favorite caving film, snap together, and go cave photographing!

[ajr]

I've been wondering the same thing for a long time and since I plan on buying film for some Thanksgiving caving trips, I have the same question. In a totally dark environment, will 400 speed film produce better results than 100 or 200 speed film, or does it really matter since I'm using a flash?

Here's my experience so far with cameras and film...
First of all, I wouldn't recommend using a disposable camera in a cave. I bought one when I went on my first caving trip over a decade ago, and while the pictures looked good, they were much darker then the pictures my friend took with his non-disposable 35mm. Maybe the new disposables have improved, but at that time, the flash was just too weak. For the next trip I bough a fairly cheap ($50) automatic 35mm and have used it ever since. I've only used 400 speed Kodak in it and have always been happy with the results. Even when I scan the pictures and print them on good quality 8x10 photo paper using my inkjet, the pictures are not grainy.

My trips include hours of banging against rocks and crawling through mud, so I'm going to continue to use this camera. I'd like to bring my digital camera, but I'm afraid I'll destroy it.

Two things you definitley want to do are to hold your breath for several seconds before taking pictures to prevent a big steam cloud from ruining them and never change a roll of film while in a cave. You may end up getting some grit in your camera and end up having scratch lines down all of your pictures (had that happen).

[Azurerana]

Since you are using a flash, the big difference will be in depth of field of the image. With 100 and 200 speed film (even with synched flash) it still takes more light to image the film. Usually a camera with a synched flash HAS to be on either 1/60th or 1/125 of a second exposure. So, that means your "more light" has to be achieved with a larger shutter opening, which means that you lose depth of field (image will get fuzzier at out of range distances.) The only way around this (to use higher shutter speeds) is to use multiple flashes, which will alter your guide number and the distances at which the image will be in focus. Even if you are using an automatic camera, and not setting these things yourself, the camera will open the shutter based on whatever light metering system it uses-- most automatic cameras are not that great for cave photography at distances beyond about 8 feet., and closeups with slow film are fuzzy. Another workaround is to use a slow shutter speed, and a tripod, but you need to find out at what point the unsynching of the shutter from the flash will result in incomplete (not full rectangle) exposures.
If you're happy with your 400 speed results, go ahead. I just don't like those results. I actually can take better pics underground with my 3.2MP Olympus than with 400 speed film. I almost always use 200 speed film-- 100 or slower is just too slow for cave photography without tripod, sherpas, etc. I know someone who shot caves at 25 speed Kodachrome with 30 minute exposures, but it took 8 hours to make one photo-- hauling in lights, reflectors, and really messing with exposure times. There were a lot of black images on that roll, and only two really good shots.

Changing film in a cave shouldn't be a problem as long as your camera, film and hands are clean. The hardest thing to keep clean are your hands, and most people I know actually use cheap cotton darkroom gloves to ensure they don't put rocks inside the camera.

[Brian Roebuck]

You can always use some of those slaved flash unit adapters (firefly etc) and some external flash units to add to your available light. These adapters sense the flash of your camera (even weak flashes) and set off the bigger units at the same instant. You can also get nice results with these by placing them on each side of your subject to eliminate shadows and bring out formation details etc. A small sandbag can be used to steady your disposable camera on a rock to get as clear an image as possible. Yard sales etc are a good place to find old flash units. Ebay is another option. Firefly slaves are available through an add in the NSS news. You may be able to google them and find a dealer as well. There are other similar units elswhere that work fine too.

Good luck!

[madratdan]

ajr said:

My trips include hours of banging against rocks and crawling through mud, so I'm going to continue to use this camera. I'd like to bring my digital camera, but I'm afraid I'll destroy it.

Welcome to the discussion board, ajr.

I bought am Otter Box for my digital camera. I also put it in a zip lock bag before putting it in the case. I keep a couple of pairs of latex gloves with the camera to protect it from dirty hands.

[ajr]

Thanks for reminding me about the Otter Box. I looked at them this summer and almost bought one for bringing my digital camera on rafting trips. I didn't even think about getting one for caving, but I'll definitely be getting one now.

[randyb]

I am new to the board, but not to caving and have went through everything from an old 110 film camera, to digital. I prefer 35mm for caving and also use an old Pentax K-1000 as mentioned. I generally use 200 speed film. It is a good balance between light sensitivity and being of sufficient quality to blow up the pics. I just use multiple flashes and set the camera on a good steady tripod with the shutter locked open. One thing I learned is to put my cameras in one box and my flashes in 1-2 other boxes, that way who ever is helping with the lighting can carry the flashes in the boxes and not worry about transporting expensive equipment exposed to mud & water.