Rock
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Rock
Posts: 57
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Post by Rock on Mar 6, 2006 13:28:32 GMT -5
Ran across this cave trip flyer pdf. I understood that camping near Camps Gulf was discouraged by the park rangers who may have considered locking the trail gate already? Anyway, is it legal or ethical to charge for cave trips to a state park cave? www.recsports.uga.edu/outdoor/fs/gorp/CavingOvernight.pdf
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Post by madratdan on Mar 6, 2006 14:31:38 GMT -5
I wonder if the rangers have seen this flyer? Sounds like another cave for pay operation. Not sure about back East if this is legal or not.
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Post by Azurerana on Mar 7, 2006 12:29:00 GMT -5
A quick netsearch reveals GORP is the Outdoor Rec group at the University of Georgia (Athens). The flyer says the fee is for transportation, equipment and guides. The Instructor is a caver known to me. I would guess as long as the park is informed ( it may not be required, but U of G would be remiss if they didn't) this is not cave for pay, but is a road trip for the Rec group--many of whom likely are not cavers-- hence the need for an instructor.
The rule on 'charging' for trips to a state park cave is: you cannot charge for 'access' to the cave-- like a cave ticket. If the money is going for driver, bus, gas, and trip expenses and no money exchanges hands at the park , it is likely legal. Since this is a campus club, it is by definition non-profit, and wouldn't be considered cave for pay. Flyer doesn't say where they are camping--if camping at nearby Fall Creek Falls SP, there is likely a group camping fee included.
Why doesn't someone email Eric and ask?
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Mar 7, 2006 15:11:39 GMT -5
The Instructor is a caver known to me. I would guess as long as the park is informed ( it may not be required, but U of G would be remiss if they didn't) this is not cave for pay, but is a road trip for the Rec group--many of whom likely are not cavers-- hence the need for an instructor. Flyer doesn't say where they are camping--if camping at nearby Fall Creek Falls SP, there is likely a group camping fee included. [/size] I think it doubtful the park was contacted about the trip in advance of the plans because if they had the flyer would say they plan to camp in the Fall Creek Falls Campground but it said instead " set up camp right outside the cave ". I understood that camping near Camps Gulf was discouraged by the park rangers who have considered locking the trail gate? [/size] From talking with one Ranger last year during a Spencer Mountain Grotto clean up, we heard that the large groups who have been camping in the vicinity of the cave as well as cave trips by enormous groups is having a hugh impact on the cave and the park land. And that it has become such an overwhelming problem for the Rangers that they are considering a change to how they manage that area.
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Post by Azurerana on Mar 7, 2006 15:46:05 GMT -5
The flyer says, "We will set up camp in a state park right outside the cave." It doesn't specify that it is at the cave-- from one perspective, FCFSP is 'right outside the cave--' especially if you're coming from Georgia. This also depends on whom they get as takers--if they get a bunch of non-outdoorsy females, camping at the parking place isn't very reasonable. Or else, those folks will never go caving again...
The original question wasn't ,"is this good for the cave? and park"? It was 'is this cave for pay?'
If these folks are traveling under the auspices of the university (obviously are, because they are a campus organization, and leaving from campus)-- all one has to do to cause a ruckus is forward the flyer to the superintendent who is in charge of Camps Gulf. If they alerted the park, they are cool. If not, U of G is probably in trouble. (I've traveled on a number of university sponsored actitivies/field trips, and we were under their rules--no alcohol in their van, even if you were legal, had to check in with people at state parks, conduct ourselves in an adult manner, etc. )
It doesn't do us any good to chat about this without contacting someone who can do something about it-- Eric or Tenn St. Pks, or U of G.
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guanonoggin
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Posts: 115
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Post by guanonoggin on Mar 7, 2006 22:43:27 GMT -5
All I know about this whole thing is this
If you get people going into caves that are willing to pay (for travel costs, or for their lunch, or to enter the cave or whatever) they usually come in bigger groups that will impact the cave more than a couple guys exploring a cave on their own. If it is true the park ranger is worried about big groups damaging things at this cave I figure he or she would want to stop big groups from going there.
Man I hope these guys aren't camping right outside the cave and have better sense than that! Big groups of campers would make a mess near the cave entrance and the Park Ranger would really get fired up about that! I wonder if you can get arrested for screwing up a part of a state park (trashing, cutting wood, whatever)?
I hope this works out OK for the cave though. If it were me I'd send them to a commercial cave and let their big GORP outdoor adventure be hiking through the gift shop! ;D
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Post by Azurerana on Mar 7, 2006 23:59:04 GMT -5
guanonoggin
1) You don't know it is/will be a big group.
2) I have a higher opinion of University outing groups than you apparently do. Most of the people I know got into caving through a uni outing group or student grotto. I'm all for UGA having such activities, as long as they comply with the rules set out by the park.
3)You don't know how this group will treat the area, so why are you assuming they will trash the area/cut wood, etc.?
4) What the NSS *does not* need are people who think commercial caves are 'outdoor adventure' . We need more twentysomethings who think doing Camp's Gulf is way cooler than cooking meth, or hanging out at the mall, or playing video games until one is bleary. Quite frankly, if there is a cave which can take 'big groups' -- Camps Gulf is it. It ain't an easy cave. If there are wimps on the trip, it can wimpify them even more. Since the flyer indicates there is a *mandatory* pre-trip meeting, I'm guessing the leader is gonna beat safety and conservation into their heads. We're all gonna die someday. We need new young blood!
I disagree that "If you get people going into caves that are willing to pay (for travel costs, or for their lunch, or to enter the cave or whatever) they usually come in bigger groups that will impact the cave more than a couple guys exploring a cave on their own." I don't know about you, but when I go caving, I have to pay for gas, food, and gear to do it.
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guanonoggin
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Post by guanonoggin on Mar 8, 2006 21:15:24 GMT -5
guanonoggin 1) You don't know it is/will be a big group. 2) I have a higher opinion of University outing groups than you apparently do. Most of the people I know got into caving through a uni outing group or student grotto. I'm all for UGA having such activities, as long as they comply with the rules set out by the park. 3)You don't know how this group will treat the area, so why are you assuming they will trash the area/cut wood, etc.? 4) What the NSS *does not* need are people who think commercial caves are 'outdoor adventure' . We need more twentysomethings who think doing Camp's Gulf is way cooler than cooking meth, or hanging out at the mall, or playing video games until one is bleary. Quite frankly, if there is a cave which can take 'big groups' -- Camps Gulf is it. It ain't an easy cave. If there are wimps on the trip, it can wimpify them even more. Since the flyer indicates there is a *mandatory* pre-trip meeting, I'm guessing the leader is gonna beat safety and conservation into their heads. We're all gonna die someday. We need new young blood! I disagree that "If you get people going into caves that are willing to pay (for travel costs, or for their lunch, or to enter the cave or whatever) they usually come in bigger groups that will impact the cave more than a couple guys exploring a cave on their own." I don't know about you, but when I go caving, I have to pay for gas, food, and gear to do it. Azurerana, I figure any group from a university is a buttload bigger than a few guys going on a cave trip or camping out. Why would GORP even bother if it is only two or three peeps! I don't give a flip if they are from a University or not. College kids are often wild as *** when they are way out somewhere overnight. I totally hope they are kept under control out there (if that's possible). I don't know that they won't total out the area either. Who does? If they are forced to camp in a real camping area I don't really care what they do but if they camp close to a cave where the ranger don't want them to I have alot more problem with them. I wish new members were coming in too. Who needs a bunch of old farts with no new blood mixed in? Even if Camps Gulf can take big groups OK - the ranger is still upset about it and that is what really makes me get fired up. I just hope the group doesn't p*** him off and get the cave closed or something is all. The leader should pound in safety and conservation hard. That would make up for some of the damage big groups can make. Yup I pay for gas and food but I drive myself and meet friends along the way. We keep the group small and try not to screw up the cave or make the owners mad. GORP has just gotta be alot bigger bunch than my caver team is! I bet they are bigger that your cave team too. Even if they are good kids they still have a bigger impact on the park that a small group. What else can I say? I am against big groups going into caves and people who profit from leading trips like that. If the GORP guys behave and show some respect for the cave and the park I guess they won't chap the ranger too bad. If GORP doesn't make a profit that's cool too. We'll see huh? Cross your fingers and hope they don't screw anything up. That would suck bigtime.
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Post by Azurerana on Mar 8, 2006 21:52:23 GMT -5
From Trip Leader Eric Crisp:
Well, apparently it's difficult to impossible to register with that site from AOL. Would you be kind enough to forward my response to you to the group, and tell people they're welcome to email me directly? Thanks in advance. Eric Crisp CaveShvig@aol.com
His Response:
Thanks for the info. I registered for the site and will respond soon. I'm about outta steam for tonight though. Just so you know, I did contact the park directly. They didn't want to commit one way or the other at first. I told them about the organization and the plans. They told me they had rather I just went instead of making a big deal out of it. If Lynn is correct about their concerns, we need to address that with them. It is completely possible that the left and right hands up there may not be completely aware of what the other might be doing... Caving for pay? Well, GORP doesn't make any money over the year, though certain trips may donate money to other trips in the long run. My purpose is to introduce kids to caving, hopefully safely for themselves and the caves. I know Lynn, who are the other folks? Eric
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L Roebuck
Technical Support
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^V^ Just a caver
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Post by L Roebuck on Mar 9, 2006 12:55:46 GMT -5
Hey Eric, yes it does sound like the FCF Staff are not on the same page so mixed messages may be getting given out.
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