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Post by Jennifer on Apr 2, 2009 14:38:34 GMT -5
Just got this email from a biologist at FWS:
Folks:
Bats at the two Virginia caves suspected to have WNS have now been confirmed.
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Post by Ron Miller on Apr 3, 2009 0:04:19 GMT -5
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Post by Trey on Apr 3, 2009 3:26:27 GMT -5
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Brian Roebuck
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Apr 3, 2009 5:08:55 GMT -5
Bummer. There goes the neighborhood.
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Post by Trey on Apr 3, 2009 6:58:07 GMT -5
Yea, that is what I thought. I am still not convinced we are causing it. Also, the way the media is being allowed to defame cavers to the public disgusts me. We should sue the USFWS for defamation if it is proved later we (cavers) are NOT the cause. Trey
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Post by Innermostphoto on Apr 3, 2009 14:26:00 GMT -5
Do you really think you will ever see the actual data representing all of this speculation? What is going on here is a handful of people actually working on the WNS situation and a bunch of others that intend to make their living on it for the next several years. How about instead of sending massive donations that feed the greedy, start a reward fund for the cure? Whoever finds the cure for WNS gets the entire pot! Winner take all! And who does keep "records of caver movements" anyway? The only group I know is the CCUS and their records are based on voluntary input. Further, the registers are placed in only very, very few caves. SO. Any statements regarding "caver movements" as fact are indeed false. bob biddix Innermost Imagery www.innermostimagery.com
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Post by subere on Apr 3, 2009 15:03:22 GMT -5
Outcomes I think it's worthwhile to think about how this all will end. Here are the outcomes that I see as possible, presented in order of increasing likelihood:
1) WNS will miraculously disappear, and things will more or less return to normal. Bat populations will begin to recover. The caving moratorium MAY be lifted.
2) The FWS moratorium will be effective, and conventional wisdom will conclude that cavers were spreading it. Bat populations will begin to recover. The caving moratorium will be extended to new states. Northeastern cavers will be pariahs, and Grottos in the Northeast will wither away.
3) The moratorium will have no effect on the spread of WNS, but scientists will uncover evidence that cavers are not responsible, and the moratorium will end.
4) WNS will continue to spread throughout the world. Cavers will be universally blamed. PETA will firebomb the NSS offices.
5) Scientists will develop some method of immunizing bats or of eradicating the fungus. Things will more or less return to normal. Bat populations will begin to recover. The caving moratorium MAY be lifted.
6) The moratorium will have no effect, but will be left in place and extended to cover states adjacent to newly-infected states, "just in case." #7 or #8 will follow.
7) WNS will kill all the bats in North America. They will be declared endangered species (on the basis that there may be some occult survivors), and caving will be banned by the US government under the Endangered Species Act. Grottos will wither away, and the NSS will lose a large majority of its members. It may fold. American cavers will be asked to not visit caves in other countries.
8) WNS will continue to spread until it reaches some natural limits, such as caves that are too warm for the fungus at one limit, or too cold at the other limit. Bats will disappear in the area within those limits (mortality over a 2-year period seems now to be 100%). They will be declared endangered species, and caving will be banned by the US government, under the Endangered Species Act. Grottos will wither away, and the NSS will lose a large number of its members. American cavers will be asked to not visit caves in other countries.
If anyone has other possible outcomes, I'd be glad to hear them.
(Cross-posted on the NSS board)
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Brian Roebuck
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Apr 6, 2009 6:06:32 GMT -5
Another article: Managers at Great Smoky Mountains National Park have closed all of the park's caves to public entry until further notice. The move is in response to a growing concern about white-nose syndrome, a new malady that has already killed an estimated 400,000 bats in the Northeast, a situation the U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) recently called "a wildlife crisis of unprecedented proportions." Today's announcement by the park is preventive in nature, but in light of a recent advisory by USFWS, it's a prudent step. www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/04/great-smoky-mountains-national-park-closes-all-park-caves-protect-bats
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Post by Innermostphoto on Apr 6, 2009 8:24:10 GMT -5
GSMNP caves closed? I never knew they were open! Have you ever tried to go through the correct procedure to get a permit into those caves? I have, tried that is and only been successful on one occasion and that was due to pure ignorance and stupidity by the Park. In other words dumb luck. I found it easier to get into Lechuguilla than to bother with the Park Service in my own state! GSMNP announces caves are closed. You make me laugh! bob biddix Innermost Imagery www.innermostimagery.com
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Apr 10, 2009 8:56:13 GMT -5
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Post by Innermostphoto on Apr 10, 2009 9:07:36 GMT -5
So why doesn't the NSS and its affiliates shut down ALL caving events in the immediate 17 state affected area and abroad? I reiterate from a previous forum not related to this one The NSS in response to the WNS crisis has decided to close all of its caves within the 17 state region and they ask for cavers to complete a moratorium on caving. This comes as a direct result from the USFW directive to close all of its caves also citing it may help slow the progression of WNS. They too, ask cavers to stop all caving activities. The Virginia Dept of Game and Inland Fisheries announced they have confirmed cases of WNS in their state and the Cookeville office in Tennessee announces all cave visitation be suspended in Tennessee unless being conducted as part of an agency-sanctioned research or monitoring project. All of these new rules are being implemented to help reduce the spread of this rampant disease that is killing bats at an alarming rate. Meanwhile, caving events continue to be planned and I have yet to see anyone mention events such as the TAG Fall Cave In, SERA, or Speleofest to be canceled. If you truly believe cavers are even remotely causing the spread of WNS then Dogwood City, The Nashville Grotto, and the Louisville Grotto (and others) are in direct conflict with the NSS and other organizations. I know, you can say it is more a social event and "we" don't really go caving. Yes, a social event that promotes caving in a time when everyone else is asking you not to go. A quick review of each of the events web site lists cave trips offered during the event. But how far are you willing to take this? Well, the NSS should cancel the 2009 convention for fear of transmitting WNS to western portions of the US and for heavens sake cancel the ICS for fear of spreading WNS throughout the world! If they don't cancel these events they are in direct conflict with their own policies. The big question is how long do you think this will continue? Researchers haven't had any answers since its discovery in 2006. Do you really think positive results will arrive soon to relinquish all these restrictions? I predict more indefinite closures in the future from private land owners and private groups. This disappoints me greatly. bob biddix Innermost Imagery www.innermostimagery.com
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Apr 11, 2009 9:03:22 GMT -5
So why doesn't the NSS and its affiliates shut down ALL caving events in the immediate 17 state affected area and abroad? Beats the heck out of me.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Apr 15, 2009 8:09:12 GMT -5
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Post by Innermostphoto on Apr 15, 2009 16:20:56 GMT -5
So these 62 caves the USFW announce as indefinitely closed, are they privately or govt owned? or is this just another way to control areas they can't control? bob biddix Innermost Imagery www.innermostimagery.com
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Apr 16, 2009 7:06:15 GMT -5
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Post by madratdan on Apr 16, 2009 8:37:19 GMT -5
Lynn, From the article it appears most of the week is concentrated in the classroom and show caves.......and they will be concentrating on karst and ground water. Too bad they aren't concentrating on WNS and educating the kids on that growing concern. You would think this would be the place to start educating the public about WNS. Do you know of any schools in your area discussing WNS in the classroom? We hardly see any info in the media around here about it.....but it hasn't effected us yet either.
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Post by Azurerana on Apr 16, 2009 9:23:11 GMT -5
I'm writing such an article for Missouri non-caver distribution, Dan. Sorry folks, but there is more to caves than bats and living creatures. Sorry about the bats, but most of what I see in the media including on cave sites is hysteria, not fact. Since show cave operations are not being closed and most are taking minimal mitigation efforts, I like one concept which is to charge $1 for caving. Then it is an economic engine, as are all the caver events which still continue. This is just another of those things which give environmentalists a bad name. Pro-bats, anti people. Have any studies being done on declines in other cave fauna? It might give a bit of perspective here. Last night at St. Louis caver pizza, one of our older members mentioned he thought the vector was really anti-WNV insecticide which was being metabolized and messing up the insectivorous bats. I think he has a point.
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Post by madratdan on Apr 17, 2009 9:33:14 GMT -5
. Last night at St. Louis caver pizza, one of our older members mentioned he thought the vector was really anti-WNV insecticide which was being metabolized and messing up the insectivorous bats. I think he has a point. I've thought this same thing from the start and still feel WNS is a byproduct of us trying to save our own lives at the expense of the animals around us. I mentioned this to one of the specialist at the April BOG meeting and was assured this could not be and was not true. Till the truth is known....rumors will fly. (but would they really want us to know that truth ). " What you don't know can't hurt you"
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Cavemud
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Post by Cavemud on May 3, 2009 10:23:45 GMT -5
People are still cavin everywhere! This WNS crap is just makin a whole bunch of secret cavers. As a 25+ year member of the NSS I must say I'm VERY disgusted at the lack of leadership surrounding this issue! I'm seriously considering NOT rejoining this organization! I personally DO NOT need the NSS for anything! I'll cave til I die or the Guvment cuffs me and stuffs me!
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Brian Roebuck
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Post by Brian Roebuck on May 3, 2009 20:20:10 GMT -5
Cavemud, While I understand your frustration I suppose we all need to consider that there are just too many questions unanswered for any organization to react well to. The NSS is run by volunteers mostly and they have other jobs etc to deal with every day. While I too would like to see more leadership and perhaps a statement of some sort from the NSS I certainly can't blow off the whole organization. The NSS wouldn't be here if not for us members. Without us the NSS has no purpose or support. I'm a life member but even if I had to join each year I would still support the organization. The NSS does more good than harm. Think about it. I've caved since the voluntary moratorium too and cleaned the gear and stayed out of bat caves. Perhaps that isn't enough or perhaps it doesn't even matter. Nobody knows. Use your best judgment and do what you believe in. I won't call foul on you or anyone else for either caving or staying out of caves. We're cavers and if we don't cave we just aren't living. These are tough times. Hang in there.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on May 6, 2009 18:09:38 GMT -5
Well Cavemud it is not just people and cavers who are still caving -- even a very well known nature corporation who says they protect cave ecosystems -- is still conducting cave projects and sinkhole projects without any regard what-so-ever for the white-nose bat advisory.
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Post by Innermostphoto on Nov 16, 2009 22:07:32 GMT -5
I have also heard that there is mounting evidence the very same people from the well known nature corporation are largely responsible for tranferring the fungus to another cave. I see where Congress approves $1.9 Million toward WNS research. Further there have been $800, 000 issued in grants and more on the way for WNS research. What do you call that? Job security. It will continue for all it is worth at the expense of you and I. It does not matter if you agree with it, right or wrong it will continue even if visitation, cave closures, and decontamination procedures are illogical. I have said it before. THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING. This is the beginning of YEARS of closures and bureaucracy that some caving groups have embraced. Many have stated they will stop caving for a year in order to protect the bats well, that is your decision...but you better hang up your helmet. Its gonna be a looooong year. bob biddix Innermost Imagery www.innermostimagery.com
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