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Post by Taylor on Mar 2, 2006 11:29:53 GMT -5
The well done photograph "Sabrina Framed Phreatically" found in the February 2006 issue of the NSS News drew critics out of the woodwork creating a bit of controversy on some caving forums. On other forums it received praise as quality artwork, without an undue amount of attention from either side of the issue.
Just curious to hear the opinions of other cavers regarding the publishing of like pictures in future issues of the NSS News, plus thoughts on whether the NSS Salon rules should be changed to limit material.
Cady Soukup also had some interest and tried to engage cavers in this topic, though she did not receive much feedback.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Mar 2, 2006 14:34:25 GMT -5
I view that photo as artistic but truthfully also have a concern about it appearing in the NSS News because the little tykes, our next generation of caver, who also view the magazine. If artistic photo's appeared in another venue my concern would be lessened. Actually, the NSS News has always seemed more like a family type magazine to me. The last few years we have even been using the NSS News ( along with some other caver publications) as a beginning introduction to caving and cave life for our grandchildren who are ages 5 yr. and 1 3/4 yr. Teaching a smaller caver about safe caving practices, proper gear and proper clothing, hypothermia, etc is quite interesting at times. So having good photo's and visuals that also relay the messages echoed in the NSS seems key to helping to teach our future generations. Just my .02  |
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Post by Sharon Faulkner on Mar 4, 2006 21:10:06 GMT -5
I may have the oddball opinion here, but I'll have a go at it.  I thought the image was artistic in nature and wasn't offended that it was presented during the Convention Slide Salon, nor when it was subsequently published in the NSS News. However, since others may feel that material of this type is not suitable for the News, maybe a compromise can be reached that's acceptable for everyone. Perhaps something along the lines of keeping the current Salon Rules and Convention Slide Salon guidelines intact, but using an alternative publication for print publishing of similar NSS Salon winners in the future. As for the NSS Salon Rules, I really don't want the Photo Salons to be limited as to what may be accepted for judging, and if a photograph is deemed to be of sufficient quality or merit to win an award, then I think it deserves to receive recognition during Convention, regardless of the subject matter. |
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Post by Azurerana on Mar 5, 2006 0:08:33 GMT -5
I can't say I remember the photo from the actual salon--photos are only on screen for a couple of seconds, and I can always close my eyes. Maybe I did. Pictures of people without clothes don't do anything for me except make me close my eyes. To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, once you've seen one adult naked body of each gender, and you're past adolescence, you've seen them all. Just people without clothes on. We have control over the people who come to the Slide Salon. The general public or unaccompanied children generally don't show up, and caver parents at convention who don't mind if their children see naked people have made their parental decisions.
I do think the News should stay rated G or at most PG-13, simply because as a Society we have no control over where the magazine may end up--in libraries, with institutional members, in dentist's offices, with government agencies, supporting or grant making companies and organizations and who knows, even with conservative rural church groups. It is an official publication reflecting the Society and its aims as a whole. If NSS members want to submit risque or art photos for the Arts and Letters Section publication, as someone has suggested-- well, by putting such photos there, it is in an artsy context (comparison being with nude paintings which are acknowledged masterworks in museums) and for the most part, the Section newsletter is not a general circulation publication in the same way as the News is .
I know lots of people who do lots of things for and with their friends, which they would be embarrassed and reprimanded for doing at work, at the local cafe, or in the street. To everything there is a season, and a time and purpose under heaven.
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Post by Taylor on Mar 5, 2006 22:12:47 GMT -5
Based upon a few comments taken from the EVP Report, I believe a course of action for the future has been determined. There was some controversy about some images in the February issue of the News including the semi-nude that was a salon winner and some of those of human remains. Dave has agreed to avoid printing both types of images in the future whether they are winners of salon awards or not, and he hopes this will hedge against any attempts to place more restrictions on the salons. www.caves.org/nss-business/reports/mar06/evp.html |
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Post by Azurerana on Mar 5, 2006 23:38:20 GMT -5
Well, that's insane. Human burial documentation are SCIENCE, and not in the slightest bit subject to aesthetic judgement.. I am absolutely sure the cave archeos and anthropologists (not to mention the author of one of the few NSS articles I have read clear through in quite some time) will be absolutely thrilled with this. I know I'm not.
Sort of curious who defined the photo as 'semi-nude'. I didn't see any clothes anywhere in the photo. The mummies HAD more clothes on ...To tell the truth, I saw mummies at a local museum at a much younger age and with less trauma than I saw photos of naked grownups.
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NZcaver
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Post by NZcaver on Mar 13, 2006 18:07:45 GMT -5
Sort of curious who defined the photo as 'semi-nude'. I didn't see any clothes anywhere in the photo. The mummies HAD more clothes on ...To tell the truth, I saw mummies at a local museum at a much younger age and with less trauma than I saw photos of naked grownups. So you find photos of naked grownups traumatic? Interesting. Might I respectfully suggest that perhaps the problem is with YOU and not the photo? Especially considering you feel that "once you've seen one adult naked body of each gender, you've seen them all." What was Reagan thinking when he said that (or was he thinking at all)? I don't wish to appear lecherous, but surely no adult in their right mind can really believe that...  I showed my wife the photos of both the "tastefully concealed" naked woman (art), and the mummy (science). Even with these being seen by children, we think it's much ado about nothing. National Geographic magazines (even the older issues) can often be much more graphic with both these types of subject matter. And they're certainly common reading for kids and adults alike - in schools, waiting rooms, and even (heaven forbid) in churches.  Anyway, Dave's publishing of the Sabrina photo obviously had the intended effect by pushing the envelope to (and apparently beyond) the limit. I think Sharon's earlier post on this thread does a good job of summing up the situation/solution. Now we can all be happy - no more NSS Nudes. ;D And FYI - I think the "semi nude" designation is just more convenient than saying "totally nude, but you really can't see any of the good bits". |
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Post by L Roebuck on Mar 13, 2006 19:00:11 GMT -5
So you find photos of naked grownups traumatic? Of course not all naked grownup photo's are tramatic.  Just "some" naked grownup photo's are tramatic.  |
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Post by Azurerana on Mar 13, 2006 20:12:56 GMT -5
So you find photos of naked grownups traumatic? Interesting. Might I respectfully suggest that perhaps the problem is with YOU and not the photo? I don't see a problem at all. Photos of naked people hold no interest for me. I am not a voyeur. There is a mild interest in a few Renaissance paintings, generally in seeing how infinitely variable skin tones are rendered in the paint,--there, the challenge of the female figure is that it is generally not angular, and it takes some skill to make a painting realistic, with minimal rendering in lines, but just posing a person and snapping a picture--nada. It doesn't matter to me if they are some gnarly old man, or some 19 year old babe. Nothing happens except to wonder why the person allowed themselves to be photographed. It might be used as blackmail. It's too many years of science fiction and romance novels, with naked or nearly naked people on the covers, and nothing salacious inside, I guess. Reagan was talking about redwoods or sequoias, not people. I really don't find naked people that appealing, not even in person. There is a difference between NG's journalism of tropical peoples (who don't wear many clothes for thermal reasons) --well, it may not be my cup of tea, but that's the way they live. I find it hard to believe that Sabrina runs around au naturel when she isn't being posed. My local Sunday paper ran an AP pictures of a grinning skull, and other slaughtered human remains yesterday in its article on the late Mr. Milosevic. Again, good journalism, showing some of the horror which his depredations supported in Serbia. Not a problem for a Sunday paper--now a problem in the NEWS. I know of churches and schools which ban National Geographic or at the least, black out those photographs. And they are in areas where there are plenty of caves and conservative caveowners. It's always amazed me that those same folks don't have a problem with the carrying on in the Old Testament. |
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NZcaver
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Post by NZcaver on Mar 14, 2006 1:01:44 GMT -5
This time your explanation makes much more sense... ;D However I think some professional photographers might take exception with your comment about their chosen art form. Just posing a person and snapping a picture? That's technically true, but by the same token don't painters just wipe some colors across a canvas? I didn't realize your Reagan quote about "naked adult bodies" was really a reference to trees. That's just weird. And in response to Lynn's reply, I concede that seeing some grownups naked would definitely be traumatic! |
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Post by madratdan on Mar 14, 2006 10:13:05 GMT -5
Welcome to the discussion board, NZ caver.
I liked the picture and thought it was in good taste. Dave made a good choice to test the waters with. With all the hoopla over it, I doubt we will be seeing Sabrina in any future issues. At least in her birthday suit, that is.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Mar 14, 2006 11:39:05 GMT -5
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NZcaver
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Post by NZcaver on Mar 14, 2006 19:21:28 GMT -5
Welcome to the discussion board, NZ caver. I liked the picture and thought it was in good taste. Dave made a good choice to test the waters with. With all the hoopla over it, I doubt we will be seeing Sabrina in any future issues. At least in her birthday suit, that is. Thanks, madratdan! (Or should I just call you Dan? Or Madrat?) ;D I think you're right. I guess some of us will just have to wait for Dave to publish his long-awaited book, then.... |
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Post by madratdan on Mar 14, 2006 23:27:26 GMT -5
Just don't call me late for dinner. ;D I'm sure you figured out I am Dan Sullivan on the NSS DB. I too await Dave's book. How much you want to bet that it breaks sales records when it is released. 
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