Floyd Collins --- Greatest Ever?

[Clint Neill]

I've seen it written that Floyd Collins was the greatest caver that ever lived.

At the risk of getting flamed ... What do you think?

While the incident was truly tragic, and left an indelible mark in the history of caving, does he deserve the Greatest label?

Also interesting that there is conflicting info about the event.

From a news story just posted on this forum:

Melting snows on the surface had caused a seepage, and a boulder, estimated by some to weigh between six and seven tons, fell, pinioning one of his feet between it and another rock.

And from Wikipedia:

Because his lamp was dying, he had to leave quickly, before exploring the chamber. He became trapped in a small passage while on his way out. He accidentally knocked over his lamp, putting the light out, and then he dislodged a rock from the ceiling, pinning his leg. It was later discovered that the rock weighed only 26½ pounds (12 kg), but it was wedged in such a manner that neither he nor rescuers could reach it.

Was his exploration for the love of caves, or to steal the commercial success of Mammoth Cave?

Even in early days of caving wasn't the dangers of solo caving and single light sources pretty obvious? Would have he entered the unstable crawl alone just to push a lead if there wasn't a greed factor involved?

Please don't get all fired up about this, I'm just posing some rhetorical questions to spark discussion!

[L Roebuck]

I think you have brought up some very interesting points for discussion. I sure don't understand why anyone would flame you.

Personally, I've never considered Floyd Collins to be the greatest caver that ever lived but consider him to be just a caver (like the rest of us) that should have known better (even in 1925) than to have been solo caving.

[Azurerana]

clinto said:

I've seen it written that Floyd Collins was the greatest caver that ever lived.

Actually, the label of 'greatest caver' likely should go to E. A. Martel, or Stephen Bishop (wow! talk about someone laboring under adversity, but not letting it get his productivity.) Collins would definitely go in the top 10, however.

Also interesting that there is conflicting info about the event.

Noooo...read Trapped! by Roger Brucker. Go through the newspaper archives. Then, put yourself as a city reporter down in rural Kentucky so far in the hills they barely had radio, maybe at the general store, if there. (Broadcast radio had first been invented 5 years before.) Of course there are going to be discrepancies. Also, 'journalists' of the day often started as paper boys and worked their way up. A highly educated journalist had graduated high school. Yellow journalism sold more newspapers, and was highly encouraged. (Do you know how much conflicting info came out of 9/11 in the first month? Now, compare that to the two weeks of Collins entrapment, and the two weeks after.

From a news story just posted on this forum:

Melting snows on the surface had caused a seepage, and a boulder, estimated by some to weigh between six and seven tons, fell, pinioning one of his feet between it and another rock.

A boulder that size would never would have fit in the passage. The Wikipedia article is more correct. It was about the size of a extra-large loaf of bread, or a small ham shank.

Was his exploration for the love of caves, or to steal the commercial success of Mammoth Cave?

Yes. Collins loved caves. He didn't want to 'steal the commercial success of Mammoth', as much as get a little of that sort of wealth for himself. Google "Kentucky Cave Wars". Remember, these people were rural and poor with a poverty most of us cannot imagine these days.

Even in early days of caving wasn't the dangers of solo caving and single light sources pretty obvious?

Not especially. People those days did many dangerous things alone-- hunting, fishing, swimming, farming as a matter of course...they were more at home in the outdoors than we are. Also, other than a kerosene or coal oil lantern, 'seconday light sources' would have been candles. Only rich people had flashlights. Who could afford the batteries? Use them once and pitch them? Wasteful, wasteful...

Would have he entered the unstable crawl alone just to push a lead if there wasn't a greed factor involved?

It wasn't greed as much as survival, and the desire to get ahead, as well as not spend the rest of his life looking at the south end of a mule. Greed is when you have, and want more. What Collins was doing was expending risk for a chance at more than a subsistence living.

Please don't get all fired up about this, I'm just posing some rhetorical questions to spark discussion!

Why should we get fired up? I first heard the "Collins--Greatest Caver who ever lived" when it was refrain in the recent Floyd Collins musical-- which, though very entertaining, and about 75% factual, should never be mistaken for researched non-fiction.

[Clint Neill]

Hi Azurerana,

You brought up good points about this subject.

I recently saw several people wearing FC T-shirts with the greatest ever line on them. That's what prompted me to think about the story. I've heard about it but never read 'Trapped' or researched more about it. I think I wlll now since its piqued my interest. I hadn't really considered the abject level of poverty found in rural Kentucky at that time until you pointed it out.

I didn't know about the musical.

With having seen the shirts I thought some might have strong opinions about FC. I didn't want to offend anyone, which I tried to make clear in my first post.

Thanks for your insightful response!