L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
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Post by L Roebuck on Jul 10, 2006 17:10:36 GMT -5
According to the book: Caving in America-- The Story of the National Speleological Society 1941-1991, on page 245, it says the James G. Mitchell Award for the best scientific paper presented at Convention by a presenter under age 25 was established in 1970. It is only presented when a qualifying young candidate gives a paper, so there is not an award every year.
This book also says"the body was 'quietly recovered' by Lew Bicking and Jerry Frederick. (p. 255), and it was after the recovery that the family endowed the award." A picture of Mitchell, and the disputed memorial stone is in this book.
Hmmmm....Lew Bicking (also died tragically young and has an award named after him) can't tell us any more, and there is no listing for Jerry Frederick in the NSS members manual. Wonder what *actually * happened, not in 1965, but in regards to this reported body recovery in the late 1960s (also according to the book, Bicking died in 1969). > OT but only a bit.... Thanks Azurerana for posting that info. I did not have the book, Caving in America--The Story of the National Speleological Society 1941-1991. But while searching for it online I did find one heck of a good deal and had to purchase it. ;D It's kind of puzzling to me that the book says "the body was 'quietly recovered' by Lew Bicking and Jerry Frederick" in the 60's - while Christian says the June 2006 remains recovery was the only recovery. Hummmm .... interesting. I just wonder what facts will surface to tell us what the truth is.
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 10, 2006 17:48:10 GMT -5
Yes Lynn - it is kind of puzzling that the book Caving in America would print something like that. If you want facts of the only recovery - I would tell anybody the same thing - contact the Herkimer County Coroner, Chris Mosher or the NY State Police BCI Forensics Division as they were on hand to not only document the findings with pics. but also identified the remains. I also was there but will never discuss or show the pics. due to an agreement with the family and out of my respect for James. I don't know what other facts people need other than the actual remains!!
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 10, 2006 18:02:04 GMT -5
This just came to me via e-mail from the Mitchell family - printed in the March '65 NSS News was a memorial for JGM and the last paragraph states : " His parents have instituted the JGM Memorial Cave Research Fund in care of the NSS. Other cavers or caving groups who may wish to do so are asked to contribute to the fund as a memorial for Jim." Hopefully that answers the question that was asked in an earlier post. As usual - I heard it was something totally different. Glad that this, which was printed in the NSS News, corrected that. Also an e-mail from the NSS just came, as they too have been searching for me, and it confirms that the Mitchell family started the trust and contributed the bulk of the money.
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Brian Roebuck
Site Admin
Caver
Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
Posts: 2,732
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Jul 11, 2006 6:00:18 GMT -5
Dr. Barr told me that Duane Featherstonhaugh died many years ago when Barr was a young man. So it looks like we are all out of luck in finding a living person that could shed light on some of this. But a good mystery is good for the soul from time to time. Maybe everyone can work together and figure out what really happened from piecing together the facts. Aside from emotions getting in the way of things here and there this has been extremely interesting. It is amazing how many versions of an event can manifest themselves over so many years. At least there is a universal respect for the man James Mitchell and his family that everyone has shown so far. May he and the rest of us find truth and peace.
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Post by JEC on Jul 11, 2006 18:32:22 GMT -5
Lynn
This from someone who knows nothing, but would someone PLEASE distinguish between a cave research fund and an award that the NSS gives out periodicly. When someone is deserving I think is how it works. Wil SOMEONE straighten this out because I know nothing and am not in touch with the family!!
Jim Crane (JEC)
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Post by JEC on Jul 11, 2006 18:45:06 GMT -5
Lynn
If memory serves me right the award was for a scientific paper written. I thought that is what was asked about. Excuse me if I am off topic. Weird how Bill didn't know of the research fund until now.
JEC
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Post by JEC on Jul 11, 2006 19:53:26 GMT -5
WOW!!
Chris Downey! I haven’t seen you in person in what? 20-30 years. I appreciate your response. I think tho you’re going a little bit over board with the accolades. If my memory serves me right I spoke with you the night your father died. As you know, my condolences. I think we spoke once since then. If you can remember, your dad probably hated me as I picked on him ruthlessly. Really, you and he know I thought the world of him. Otherwise I wouldn’t be in this forum.
As to your dad, he could set any trip up. Be it caving or exploring or for that matter DIGGING!! I think you know how much I grew to hate that along with maybe you. But there are some up here in NY that still are willing to hunt that dream. Just not me as I am an armchair caver now. And yes, I have some of those wonderful slides your dad took also. I will never forget always having to pose in the water shots for just one more. Me not being the only one to suffer through that. In my book he was great and I for one miss him.
As for me knowing what took place during that rescue, I can’t. I can only surmise from what I seen after the fact. And trust me, I was the first person in there. And other than the bone I brought out that day there has been no other recovery than the one Christian Lyon just pulled off a week ago. Great for him and the Mitchell family but as one writer said we would have never considered it. No reason to.
But I am getting carried away here. Sorry as I am also passionate but for different reasons. Now to the gist of your post. I am TRULY sorry but in all good faith, I-JEC- cannot honor your request if I feel that my “FRIEND” is being slighted. I will not let him be forgotten for what he did for JGM. What is RIGHT is RIGHT and I for one can not sit back and let it happen. I would hope that the caving community sees him for what he was. One hell of a caring person. I am sorry for this but if you wish to contact me you, or for that matter anyone else can, @ jcrane@twcny.rr.com. I welcome ANY comments any one wants to make on this matter.
Jim Crane (JEC)
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Post by noble1 on Jul 11, 2006 20:38:07 GMT -5
I thought I knew every one who lived near the cave. Does any one know what farm Duane Featherstonhaugh lived on? I have never heard of that name in my life. I'm not doubting his existence of course. I just wondered whose farm he lived on and why I don't remember some one with a name like that. Brian
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Post by kortc on Jul 11, 2006 22:01:12 GMT -5
well let me be the first to be polite, and welcome chris to the discussion, and you as well brian its been a long time since weve touched base hasent it chris im sorry but i have to stand by my father on his last post, fore your father was too good of a man to be let down, especially over something like SPC well at any rate i just wanted to say HI from kortney, and kristin Brian, i was wondering what farm you lived on ? is your name noble i know of nobles from little falls would this be the same family ? obviously you are older than me/ sorry ! anyways it is nice to hear from someone who was if not at the site of the the accident, atleast interested in it well thats enough for me, i just wanted to put my 2 cents in and say hi
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 11, 2006 23:41:13 GMT -5
Lynn If memory serves me right the award was for a scientific paper written. I thought that is what was asked about. Excuse me if I am off topic. Weird how Bill didn't know of the research fund until now. JEC What's the matter Jim - you thought someone other than the Mitchell family started this ?? Funny how both the NSS got back to me, after doing their own research and the Mitchell family, and both said the same thing, yet you're still incensed with the outcome. Give credit where it's due!!
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 12, 2006 0:02:51 GMT -5
Just so you're aware JEC - you can throw mud my way till the cows come home but the fact of the matter is - I feel pretty darn good for what I've accomplished and I know how the Mitchell family feels so your negative bs is of no consequenses to me.
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Post by noble1 on Jul 12, 2006 22:11:48 GMT -5
Thanks KORTC for saying hi and for calling me old. I was actually at the cave site the night of the accident. I got pretty close to the entrance the first night. After the first night the police kept stopping us even though we tried hard to sneak through to get closer. I am not from the Noble family. My father's first name was Noble. I have hesitated in saying who I am. It is a bit of a pride thing. But hey that was long ago. I have changed a great deal. Moving to Floirda was very good for me. When I was in my teens I was a huge introvert and therefore came across as a nerd I think , accept to people who really knew me. I am a Johnson. We owned the small farm right next to Frank (the father-- later owned by Ed) Petkovsek on the Burrell Rd. Our property went all the way back to the top of the hill on the Peckville Rd so I was over near the cave a lot. Christian, I have a confession. I was mad that Mitchell died in that cave. Mad that he and the other two went in there in the first place. I was just a dumb shy kid in 7th grade, but I had plans in exploring that cave soon. Those slides of Schroeders are about the only thing I remember from science class and I had plans of seeing the cave myself. Those three ruined it for me. I thought those out of state people had no business of being near or in "our" cave. As I already said, I heard the stories of others going in after the accident, but I was afraid the cave would collapse on me after they used the dynamite. I'm over it ----really. I just read what I wrote. I sound like I need psychological help. Hey, I got to go in the cave on Ed's property more than once after that and even though it wasn't nearly as cool as Schroeders it still was a lot of fun. Thanks for listening. brian
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 12, 2006 23:00:18 GMT -5
Hi Brian - I'm glad that you are on this forum. And I'm glad that you said what you did - it's good to get things off your chest. I understand your being upset as a young man.
I HAVE ONE MORE THING TO ADD REGARDING MY UNCLE JIM'S LATEST RESPONSE.
In his post he says and I quote, "as far as me knowing what took place during that rescue, I can't. I can only SURMISE from what I seen after the fact." Well surmise in the American Heritage Dictionary says - to infer (something) without sufficient evidence. To make a conjecture; guess, to accuse.
Interesting - this being from my uncle who has all the answers and who has spouted off on this forum and slammed me because he has 2 or 3 pictures of JGM's body in the pit 2 years later. He knows everything that happened because he was in the cave a few months later and then to the pit 2 years later. Do I have the answers - NO - never said I did. But I'm also not accusing people of things "that I surmise". Alot of things could have happened in that cave in 2 years. And like I said earlier - having just witnessed the remains and NONE of the remains were broken in any way makes me doubt my uncles theory that the rope was cut by the rescue team. If it ever comes out differently - trust me - I'll be the first to broadcast it. But in the meantime - I will not slam members of that rescue team based on 3 pictures that were taken 2 years later. These were kids that made up that team - ranging in age from 16-21 (roughly the same age that you were uncle Jim). They left school, flew to a strange town, to enter a strange cave, and spend the next five days in that cold, wet cave with a dead body in it. You even said in an earlier post how it made you feel in the cave 2 years later being in there and witnessing the body.And this was a cave that you had been in a 100 times already. So it is my OPINION but I give these kids (who have grown into fine men) alot of credit. As for Bill Karras, well I never met him and he has since passed away, but I am aware of his personality and how he rubbed alot of people the wrong way. This even coming from members of his own team. With that being said - I do not know what happened in that cave that week but I will not spout off to the whole world WHAT I "SURMISE" just because I have 3 pics. taken 2 years later. And furthermore - it has already been established in this forum who paid for the gravestone - so enough with that already. Nobody is picking on your friend.
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Post by JEC on Jul 14, 2006 18:27:18 GMT -5
Well here we go again
He won’t let up. Still can’t get his FACTS straight! Let’s see, I am being accused of not giving CREDIT where CREDIT is DUE! You have to be kidding!!! I applaud the Mitchell family for starting a cave research fund. But what does that have to do with the award for the best scientific paper presented at convention by a presenter under the age of 25. This being what was asked about in the first place. Perhaps you should read other posts than your "own". For that matter you ought to reread yours and think about what you have written. Why don’t you want the true facts brought out? Will it take away from your LIMELIGHT?? Why shouldn’t everyone know the true facts? Perhaps you should ask Jack(oops, I will not bring anyone into this forum who is not willing to voice their own known facts) about who the people were who instituted this award. But you still do not want to know all the facts as they may take away from your FICTIONAL DOCUMENTARY. As for SURMISE!!! What has the illustrious DOUG BRADFORD ever put forth as PROOF?? Remember, they are the ones who drew the diagrams of how much collapsed in SPC! Did you research those articles??? NO, I guess not, after all you’re only interested in the HOLLYWOOD money making VERSION! As for changes in the cave. They were caused by the drill bits breaking thru the ceiling of the pit. Funny how they managed to drill FOUR holes into the pit and then only stop the big bit from opening it up by a few inches! The whole cave collapsed per your SOURCES! WAY TO GO DOUG!!! I guess we blew that theory all to h_ll. WAIT, I remember reading one of your interviews where it was your father who discovered the cave was opening itself back up. I GUESS I better check that out! How’s that for slinging MUD? Be careful because you gave a lot of interviews that were recorded.
Now we get down to the nitty gritty!!! For the whole caving communities knowledge, I (JEC) have slides from 1967,1969,1970, of the remains in the bottom of the pit. 2 or 3 pictures?, you are quite the “researcher”!! I listend to one of your FINE men tell how he spent FOUR DAYS in the bottom of that pit. Guess what?? I don’t believe him!!! LOOK THAT UP IN YOUR DICTIONARY!!! I can sling mud because I have the proof!! They spent FOUR DAYS and couldn’t even move the body out of harms way and trust me there were places to put it. But you wouldn’t know any of that would you? Just a little tidbit, on my SECOND trip to the bottom I learned you didn’t need to climb all the way back up. YOU CAN ACTUALLY WALK FROM THE BOTTOM TO THE LEDGE!!! FOUR DAYS MY A__!! Remember that was my 2nd trip to the bottom and me not being an experienced caver, or member of a “RESCUE TEAM”. “FOUR DAYS”, I heard him tell this with my own ears. He sounded just like Bill Karras and “YOU”. YEAH I heard Karras too as they put on an assembly at the school!! I am glad you won’t spout off to the whole WORLD with what you “SURMISE” because we already know how your FACTS come out! The word “untruths” comes to mind.
But let,s see, you will spout off and do character assassinations of your grandfather and Clark but not Bill K. Oh and me too but I,m here to defend myself and therein lies this whole problem. Your FICTIONAL DOCUMENTARY is unraveling! As to the TRUTH ever coming out differently- trust “YOU”- you will be the first to broadcast it “HAH” !!!!!! One only needs to read the articles of late to know what that means! As to picking on my friend- how childish! When you start telling the “facts” I will be interested. Then I hope the whole caving community will listen.
JEC
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Post by Azurerana on Jul 14, 2006 19:04:56 GMT -5
I applaud the Mitchell family for starting a cave research fund. But what does that have to do with the award for the best scientific paper presented at convention by a presenter under the age of 25. This being what was asked about in the first place. Here is the scoop from the horse's mouth or webpage www.caves.org/nss-business/bog/description.html if you prefer. It explains how a cave research fund and an award are related. "JAMES G. MITCHELL AWARD: The James G. Mitchell Award was established in 1969 to be given for the best scientific paper presented at any of the sessions of the annual convention by a member (or members) of the Society age 25 or younger who has applied or been recommended for this award. The Award consists of a certificate and a cash award based on the income earned by the James G. Mitchell fund. (Act 43-139)" Therefore, there is no reason to argue over 'Award' vs "Research Fund" . Obviously if a research fund is established, it has to disburse funds by some method, and a 'best paper for research' is the mechanism. Azurerana
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Post by JEC on Jul 14, 2006 20:28:13 GMT -5
Azurerana
Thank you for setting this straight as I was led to believe that a past officer of the NSS was instrumental in setting up this award. That person still being alive today.
Therefore I am still interested as to who initiated this award as that was the original question. But of course I got jumped on by someone thinking differently. I am glad there are people out there to clarify and keep me straight on the FACTS.
Although I am still awaiting my answer.
JEC
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 14, 2006 20:45:43 GMT -5
I should have known you'd have an answer for everything. As for my "fictional documentary" coming unraveled - I'm not worried about a thing. I got one word for you JEALOUS!!!!! Jealous that I've been in that cave a total of 5 times and you spent all the time you did in there and I accomplished what I did and what do you have to show for - NOTHING !!! You can't even rest on the Mitchell award yet. Everything has to be tied to you or one of your friends. Well I got news for you - what does any of that have to do with ME SUCCESSFULLY RECOVERING THE REMAINS AND BRINGING CLOSURE TO THE MITCHELL FAMILY??? NOTHING!! You and your group of the "best cavers ever assembled in the Northeast" had plenty of time to bring justice or closure for James and you did NOTHING !! So don't go hatin' now that your "untruthful, wanna-be caver, character assasinating, mud-slinging" nephew did what you never did. I'll say it again - this whole recovery mission had absolutely nothing to do with you or your theories or who paid for the gravestone that sat in your backyard for 25 years or how great of a team you guys were or which one of your friends you think started the award for James blah blah blah. ONCE AGAIN - I AM BEYOND PROUD OF MY ACCOMPLISHMENTS not only on this matter but for my entire life!! And I for one am ashamed of your behavior. You had 3 weeks in person to slander me or feel your need to correct me and you kept quiet. You had nothing to say to my face. With that being said - I will no longer be posting here as I am embarrassed by my uncles behavior. Sorry that he feels here is where he needs his fifteen minutes of fame ( at my expense) Hopefully he has used up 14 minutes so any of you all that don't really know him only have to listen to one more minute. When the time comes that the documentary is ready to view - you in the caving community will surely hear of it - either by me or if my uncle hasn't used his last minute up. For those that have supported me in my SUCCESSFUL RECOVERY, I THANK YOU.
Christian Lyon
p.s. - I do feel terrible that I allowed this negativety to get this far out of hand. I should have left JEC to his own game and ignored him 2 weeks ago when he first started to draw attention to himself. I didn't and I regret any of the nonesense that has resulted on here since. It does take away from the true intentions and for that I am sorry.
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guanonoggin
Beginner
Dude Caving
U.S. Caver Dude
Posts: 115
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Post by guanonoggin on Jul 15, 2006 7:31:11 GMT -5
Totally Bogus Dudes! Cavin aint about headlines, who done what, or who got credit man. It's about exploring the freakin outer limits of yourself and the caves you visit. It's about radiating good Karma to each other and enjoying mother earth together man! Takin pictures of a dead caver dude is definitely bad karma! It's freaking bogus. No respect man. Getting the dead caver dude's bones out for his family to finally deal with is totally good karma. Tons of respect there. Dudes - act like men and get over the punk-a$$ online family feud! Mitchell was a real caver who died doin' what he loved. He deserves to friggin rest in peace and not be the center of a friggin b*tch slappin contest. Chill Chucky Out
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Post by Taylor on Jul 15, 2006 13:23:45 GMT -5
I found this information on the Mitchell Fund and Mitchell Award. The first date of the Mitchell Fund must be a typo, since it list 11-14- 64 as the motion date, which would mean it was initiated prior to the cave accident. www.caves.org/nss-business/bog/sec-43.html#43-13943-139 Mitchell Award 11-4-00 10-26-85 10-20-84 3-15-80 11-18-72 11-14-64The James G. Mitchell Fund was established in 1965 and is maintained by contributions to the National Speleological Foundation. Pursuant to the agreement with the Foundation, an award may be made for the best scientific paper presented at any of the sessions of the annual convention by a member (or members) of the Society age 25 or younger. Papers shall be evaluated primarily on how well they exemplify sound methods of scientific research and presentation, and secondarily on their contribution to knowledge. The eligible papers shall be judged by an interdisciplinary panel appointed by the Awards Committee Mitchell Award Sub-committee Chairman and shall include, if possible, a member of the Research Advisory Committee. The Award shall consist of a suitable certificate (or certificates in the case of multiple authors) and a cash award equal to the maximum $5 increment below the interest earned on the fund for that year and shall be announced at the annual convention. www.caves.org/nss-business/bog/description.htmlJAMES G. MITCHELL AWARD:The James G. Mitchell Award was established in 1969 to be given for the best scientific paper presented at any of the sessions of the annual convention by a member (or members) of the Society age 25 or younger who has applied or been recommended for this award. The Award consists of a certificate and a cash award based on the income earned by the James G. Mitchell fund. (Act 43-139)
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Post by cavertim on Jul 15, 2006 14:06:55 GMT -5
SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT
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Post by Taylor on Jul 15, 2006 15:06:53 GMT -5
SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT cavertim, if you are referring to my previous post, I'm not sure that's the case. The date listed on the Mitchell fund suggest the fund was created prior to the accident which does not jive with previous information. The correct order of how the events unfolded is not known at this time and there may not be anyone left who knows for sure. In the overall scheme of things, confusion over the order of events shouldn't be a showstopper for the documentary. p.s. - I do feel terrible that I allowed this negativety to get this far out of hand. I should have left JEC to his own game and ignored him 2 weeks ago when he first started to draw attention to himself. I didn't and I regret any of the nonesense that has resulted on here since. It does take away from the true intentions and for that I am sorry. Lyon, you have never needed to defend yourself or your motives for the making of this documentary. Anyone could have taken it upon themselves to create a documentary of this incident, it's been over 40 years, no one else intended to do anything regarding the remains. You returned the remains of a family member to the Mitchell family, for that you deserve the appropriate credit and any limelight that comes with it. If someone does not agree with your work, they can still go out and make their own documentary at any time. That's the beauty of America, people can agree or disagree with others viewpoint and make documentaries regarding any subject. Stop worrying, finish your documentary and keep the rest of us here informed of your progress.
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Post by noble1 on Jul 15, 2006 21:10:01 GMT -5
Just a bit of Trivia. I just learned that Mrs. Hilda Bajza from Dublin Texas passed away on June 30, 2006 at age 86. The Bajzas owned the farm where Schroeder's Pants Cave is located before they sold it to the Gresslers. I know they owned the farm in the early 50's and probably owned it when the cave was discovered although I don't know that.
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