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Post by kortc on Jun 28, 2006 6:48:04 GMT -5
yes sharon the first 4 names are all exprienced cavers from kentucky connecticut and the schoharie area of ny the last name being the brother to james mitchell this group of 5 men made there way to the back of the cave to perform the recovery operation a small amount of assistance was provided by myself and mr. lyon i must say that were it not for the efforts of christian this group of cavers would not have met and james mitchells remains would still be sleeping forever in the cave he loved i should also note that appon mitchells accent to the top of the pit with his brothers remains that the group of exp. cavers all remained in the pit to do a complete survey/map hopefully thiswill be available soon for all to see i would also like to note that clark downey was indeed a very kind and generous man and that he too will not be forgotten
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Post by kortc on Jun 28, 2006 6:54:37 GMT -5
lynn the only problem that i see with calling it a fomer grave site is with the percentage of remains that were actually removed from the cave
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Post by L Roebuck on Jun 28, 2006 8:03:00 GMT -5
Unfortunately, it seemed doubted a full recovery could have been possible after so many years had passed. Possibly the cave might still be known as a grave site if any of the remains were left behind.
Anyway a big thanks to the caver's who helped with the recovery effort and also to those who surveyed and mapped the pit! Would you mind giving us a better description of the pit?
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Post by JEC on Jun 28, 2006 13:52:17 GMT -5
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Post by L Roebuck on Jun 28, 2006 14:12:50 GMT -5
Thanks Jim! The link to the image worked fine. I hope you don't mind but I added IMG and /IMG with the brackets [ ] before and after each of those tags so the image of the James Mitchell monument would show up on the forum for all the cavers who might want to see it. Monument and inscription by Clark R. Downey NSS 8864RE
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Post by noble1 on Jun 28, 2006 20:40:30 GMT -5
I've never blogged or written in a forum before, but Schroeder's Cave interests me. I was so surprised to open the Tampa Tribune last Friday and see a half page spread with pictures on Dolgeville NY. I have lived in Florida every since I graduated from Dolgeville High School, but I grew up on a small dairy farm right next to the area where Schroeder's cave was. I was in the 7th grade when it happened. We heard all the sirens and went out side and saw all the comotion across the field. We had little to do in that area so any flashing red light was comotion. Once we convinced some of our neighbors to get off the party line (probably none of you know what that even means) we called the Gresslers (the home where Hedy went to get help) and they filled us in. We went over to the woods immediately and every night after that. I'll add just a couple of things and stop. Probably a rookie at this forum stuff shouldn't write so long the first time. No one has mentioned how neat this cave really was. We had many slide presentations of this cave in science classes at the school. The stalagmites and stalactites in Shroeder's Cave were absolutely beautiful. Christian, the articles have said no one warned these kids. I don't think that is correct. I know I was young, but it seems to me that the story was that your grandfather did tell them how dangerous it was and not to go in there. I do know there was a lot of bitterness in the village over the rescue team sent in, but I will wait and see if any one is interested in this before I write more. Thanks for reading.
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Post by Sharon Faulkner on Jun 28, 2006 21:24:37 GMT -5
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm interested in hearing more about this incident from someone who was present at the time.
There are a number of cavers on this forum who weren't born yet or were too young to have known of this event prior to Christian's research and documentary efforts becoming more public last fall. Even if you were young at the time, you have more information than many of us.
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Post by noble1 on Jun 28, 2006 21:59:38 GMT -5
Thank you Sharon. I got a real to real tape recorder that Christmas just before this and taped all of the TV news about the cave. Those tapes are long gone. I never thought I would wish that I had kept those. I do remember the excitement when the helicopter came in with the Federal team. The excitement turned into disappointment and anger on the part of many because the local people always believed they knew enough about the cave that they could get Mitchell out. The Federal team did not allow the locals to help much. They thought they knew more. I found it interesting that the news is now saying that the Federal team was inexperienced. I really am not trying to cause any friction in this forum, but I do remember that Mitchell's two friends left to go back to Massachusetts before the final decision to close the cave. I guess they had to get back to college or what ever, but the local people all thought that was very strange that they didn't wait to see if their friend's body was going to be brought out. It is also interesting that Christian got the blessing of the family to get his bones out now. As I recall, it was Mitchell's father who asked for him to be left in there earlier than the team agreed to. I may be very wrong on this, but I thought his father left to go back home before the final decision as well. I do know that the owner of the property at the time (Frank Petkovsek) did not want them to leave the body in there and ask the team to continue trying to remove him. There is a mansion about 5 miles away in Little Falls and there is a tomb there. It is called Beardsley Mansion or tomb and people claim that they have seen ghosts carrying lanterns around there. People went there often to see if they could see the lanterns. Frank was concerned that the same thing would happen with Schroeder's Cave so he wanted Mitchell's body out. The entrance to the cave was on the Gressler property, but the area where they tried to drill was on the Petkovsek property. I never went in Schroeder's cave, but after this episode I got interested and I did go in other caves in the area. There are a few with in just a few miles radius. The other caves did not have the stalagmites or stalactites like Schroeder's so I was always disappointed that I didn't get to go in that one. I heard the stories in high school of people going in the cave after it was closed, but I never tried. My parents would have killed me if I had tried something like that. Brian
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Post by Lyonz on Jun 29, 2006 0:40:06 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum Brian ~ I just got back to CA. and thought I would check in. Just a few minor adjustments Brian - In your first message you stated that Hedy went to the Gresslers when in fact it was Charlie Bennett. Hedy was still in the cave and only came out when my uncles Mart & Willie went in and got her out. And in your second - the entrance was on Petkovsek's property and the drill shaft on Gresslers. All minor As for the Mitchell family - you are correct - the father (Jim) did come to Dolgeville Sun. morning, Feb. 14th and left to go back to OH. on Mon. and they had a memorial service that night. That was there religious teachings and in no way should be made out that the family did not care or were insensative or anything else that floated around town. Mr. Mitchell knew that his son was gone and he did not want anybody else trapped, hurt or killed. This is not aimed at you Brian - I'm just setting the record straight because for the last 40 years there have been people that have made this family out to be something that they were, and are, not. I've done my homework and found the family to be of the best!! There is a "confidential report" out there that had the Mitchell's divorced and that Jim came from a broken family. All one would have had to do was make a phone call to learn that wasn't the case. In any event, I have focused on the positive in this whole project and am extremely proud of how it all turned out. It went off without a hitch. This has not been about me or anybody else other than James Gentry Mitchell and the surviving members of his family. As for the gravestone - I infact gave credit in my Nov. presentation and in print in the Dolgeville Violet Festival magazine. The Mitchell family was informed not to place a stone at the cave so not to draw attention. Four years later Clark Downey came to town and was filled with so much "bs" by members of the town, that he thought Jim Mitchell was basically left for dead. People that Clark talked to on his first visit to town, still had Jim hanging on the rope 4 years later. COME ON!!! They also said that the Mitchell family never came to town and finally sent an uncle who said "dynamite the cave". It's these "stories" that led me to start researching the facts 3 years ago.Till next time. Christian Lyon
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Post by Azurerana on Jun 29, 2006 8:10:39 GMT -5
Unfortunately, it seemed doubted a full recovery could have been possible after so many years had passed. Possibly the cave might still be known as a grave site if any of the remains were left behind. Folks, The entire planet is a graveyard of graves known and unknown for people, animals and plants. One need look no further than the well-reported attitude of Native Americans of respect towards all the land because it contains the graves of their ancestors. While I commend Mr. Lyons for his efforts, and realize all states try to compartmentalize grave and non-grave sites, we all go back to dust which scatters, and therefore everywhere should be sacred, or nowhere.
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Post by L Roebuck on Jun 29, 2006 11:18:49 GMT -5
At first this thread was merely a post on the forum concerning a November 3, 2005 newspaper article, "Program to remember the 1965 tragedy at Schroeder’s Pants Cave".
Then, suddenly, as other's who had been touched by this tragedy began to post about their research, caver memories or personal experiences this thread began to take on a more human form -- a form that has now touched the lives of many in the both the public and caving community. This thread has also helped our understanding of how 'far reaching' the emotional impact was concerning James Mitchell's death, the rescue attempt, the cave closing, etc, etc at Schroeder's Pants Cave. And we can only hope that in some way healing might occur and that one day every one affected will find peace and closure.
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Post by kortc on Jun 29, 2006 11:29:57 GMT -5
to all yes indeed there is more to this story than what we can get from the media, past and present im sure we will never know the whole truth of the james mitchell tragedy there is way too many things about this story that just dont make sense i myself am just waiting for lyonz's documentary to come out i know it will be at the least interesting, and should be very informative to all who are not familliar with the story
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Post by JEC on Jun 29, 2006 17:55:18 GMT -5
WHOA!!!! Must be I ruffled some FEATHERS!!! I did this cave in the 60's with the Lyon family of now witch I am a member. My old NSS# 8344 will atest to that fact. When I wrote to the news media it was about their inaccuracies. I wanted the caving co0mmunity to know what one of their OWN did for a fellow caver. Obviously I have taken away from some ones LIMELIGHT or I would not have created the response I did!!! I will address this subject further this weekend. JEC
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Post by noble1 on Jun 29, 2006 20:01:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the corrections, Christian. I thought the property lines were the other way around, but that was a long time ago and I stand corrected. I really didn't remember whether it was the girl or guy who went for help. I thought I read in one of the recent articles that it was the girl, but I probably just assumed that. I knew all of this stuff once, but time has a way of making ones memory foggy. I hope you don't think I was the one that wrote about Downey's gravestone. I don't know who he is and I didn't even know there was a gravestone. I guess that was placed there after I moved to Florida. I used to go during my high school years to the cave to walk around the outside and to see if the place where they dynamited caved in, but when I came back to visit every Christmas I never went to the cave. I don't know who said you didn't do your homework, but obviously that is wrong. The fact that you knew I was wrong on the property lines shows you did your homework. Who else would even know the Gresslers lived there? I know you weren't trying to be funny, but you made me laugh with line "Jim hanging on the rope 4 years later". It made me laugh only because I remember those stories of people saying that. Don't get too upset at the towns people, Christian. You know what we were all like. We had little to do back in those days except to make a bigger story out of something. This was a huge event for Dolgeville so stories were bound to develop and additions to the stories were bound to happen. At any rate, I was always interested in the cave and the events so it was neat to hear about your interest and all that you did. I didn't take any thing you said personally, Christian. Thanks for setting me straight on the facts. I still did have one question which I already mentioned in my first writing. Was I wrong about your grandfather warning them not to go in because of the thaw? That part seems to be more clear in my mind, but was that just the village people talking as well? Did you hear that Dolgeville was in the news again tonight.? CNN has been running stories of the Creek over flowing and a house falling in. Nice of you to reply to me Christian. Hope you got some rest. Brian
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Post by Lyonz on Jun 30, 2006 10:23:06 GMT -5
Brian ~ My response on the last page was not aimed at you. I'm glad you're writting here as it gives a little more insight as to what was going on back then. As for the "towns people" - I thank them because had it not been for all the negative stories I heard through the years, I might not have started my research for the truth, which led me to last weekends retrieval. I only hope now that some of the people that either started those stories, or embelished them and passed them on, now see the truth. Obviously there still are questions, ones I may never get answers for, but I continue in my work. There are also small details that I had wrong - and when I realized that I had them wrong, I corrected them - rather than continuing the cycle. As for my grandfather warning them - he did not on that day as he was out on the milk route and didn't see them that day. He did say - had he been there, he would have warned them. He met with Jim the other 2 times he came to town and had my uncles and cousins take him to the cave to show him where it was.
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Post by L Roebuck on Jul 1, 2006 12:14:35 GMT -5
My old NSS# 8344 will atest to that fact. Just out of curiousity are you still an NSS member
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Post by JEC on Jul 2, 2006 6:17:45 GMT -5
No Lynn Not since 1971 I think. Due to a large family I did not keep up my membership. I did continue to do extensive caving in the northeast until the mid to late 90's, Now arthritis makes doing any but the easiest cave anything but fun. For your info Christian's Uncle Duane Lyon (NSS#8254RE-still active), his cousin Monty Lyon, & myself reactivated the old Adirondack Grotto (now defunct) that his grandfather & great uncles started but fell by the wayside. I will be responding to Christian later. There is a lot of HOMEwork that he has not done. Thanks for your interest Schroeder's Pants Cave JEC
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Post by JEC on Jul 2, 2006 7:48:12 GMT -5
Christian & fellow Cavers (are you a caver Christian?)
I can’t believe the stir I created by wanting to set the facts straight to fellow cavers & tell the news media their reporting is lousy. Here I thought DOCUMENTARIES were supposed to be portrayals of the FACTS!! As to Clark hearing nothing but BS do you know who invited him to Dolgeville? Your Grandfather George (just facts). Do you know the Bser’s he talked to? Your Grandfather, your Uncle Duane & myself. Do you know Clark did not come alone but brought an expert caving team with him. It was 5 or 6 years after the tragedy, not 4, & they explored the whole cavern including both pits. These are just more facts. The group consisted of Wayne F. expert caver), E.K. (expert caver), Pete F. (expert caver, professional photographer),Fred C. (expert caver), &Frank Z.(expert caver, God rest his soul). By the time these cavers came to town many people knew of the caving being open. By the time the grave marker was placed there dozens had done the cave. How many times have you done this cave Christian? Maybe once in 2004, once2005, neither time to the end, & now in 2006 finally to the telephone room. I’m just trying to learn the facts. I did this cave more times before it was closed than I have after but at least I do know the facts!
To address something else, when you came to my house in Nov. 2005 I had my reservations as to your intentions. I attended your presentations & enjoyed them. I applaud your accomplishment of getting most of the remains removed. But that is as far as I will go because remember I was there both days & witnessed everything. I listened to the comments. What I "SEEN & HEARD" confirmed my suspicions. IF this weekend was about James Mitchell & his family, why was it such a media circus. It should have been handled with dignity for Bill’s sake. It should have been kept low key instead of notifying all the media & local community ahead of time. Why didn’t Bill carry his brothers remains out of the cave? That would have been the proper & dignified thing to have done. Can one imagine without all the publicity HYPE how much could have been accomplished. With two trips to the bottom all of the remains could have been searched for & possibly found.
So again I want to give credit where credit is due. CHRISTIAN did a FABULOUS job setting this up!! But accuracy wise I still consider it a bust. As for trying to slip a little threat in your post as to sad. WELL Christian , I am not ashamed of anything I have done, so bring it on. I only hope you can truthfully say the same. To everyone else I’m sorry for such a long post but what’s right is right.
JEC (Jim Crane)
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Post by L Roebuck on Jul 2, 2006 9:01:43 GMT -5
No Lynn Not since 1971 I think. Due to a large family I did not keep up my membership. I did continue to do extensive caving in the northeast until the mid to late 90's, Now arthritis makes doing any but the easiest cave anything but fun. JEC Thanks for the reply Jim. It's always interesting to hear why caver's don't maintain their NSS membership.
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Post by JEC on Jul 2, 2006 12:49:25 GMT -5
My wish is that you pay more attention to my other post , not my pains. But you are one GOOD Administrater!!! After all, I have been around awhile even tho some don't want to admit it.
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Post by Lyonz on Jul 2, 2006 15:06:01 GMT -5
Where do I start?? First off, for those of you who haven't figured it out yet, JEC is my uncle and Kortc is his son(my cousin). Nowhere in this forum or in any print does it deny JEC the fact that he was a very experienced caver. On the contrary, I gave him his props at my original Nov. '05 presentation, all of which was filmed and in the Dolgeville Violet Festival magazine. As for Kortc - I have only been in Schroeder's Pants Cave and only with Kortc and there is nobody I'd rather be in there with. He is extremely experienced and very helpful. He was one of the first people I called when organizing last weekends events and had it not been for his size, he too would have been down in the pit, as I wanted members of my family there for obvious reasons. As for the "confidential report" that Clark Downey wrote. In the very first paragraph it reports my grandfather's NSS # as 810 when in fact it is 858 and he joined on Christmas Day 1947. It also states that the cave was discoverd in 1931. Well my grandfather joined the NSS in '47 and a full page in a July 1948 newspaper stated they discovered the cave last fall. I also spoke to my cousin Robert Lyon who confirmed that detail. That same paragraph talks about the only "reported" entrance - well we all know there is only ONE known entrance. As the report goes on... it stated that Clark came to town in Sept. of '69 with a W. Smith, which was "prompted by rumors of some huge pit caverns in Herkimer County by friends of theirs who had previously visited the area". Next paragraph states they stopped by a gas station, where they chatted with the owner, who told them of the Mitchell tragedy. "He's still in the cave, hanging in the pit". So nowhere there does it say my grandfather invited him to town. He came to town not even knowing of the tragedy. Next page has Clark talking with the owners of the farm where the cave lies. When asked if Jim was still in the cave, the response was "Hell- he's still in there, hanging from the rope. It goes on to say the parents were divorced(not true) and that they weren't interested in getting their son out and wouldn't pay for a grave marker. They were then referred to as "B**tards". Clarks response was, "they sound like a couple of creatures" . So as you can see - JUDGEMENT was already being made without doing any research. Now onto page seven of this "report" it states that Jim is at the bottom of the pit but he wasn't lowered. My grandfather goes on to say he BELIEVES karras just cut the rope. Clark's response was, "ARE YOU KIDDING"? My grandfather then pulls out a piece of rope with a frayed end - In speaking with the National Rescue Team members they told me they cut his prussik rope and lowered him to the bottom with his bolay rope, which would make sense of a frayed end on one of the ropes. The report goes on to say my grandfather shows Clark a "shoulder bone showing a break in it - now if I'm not mistaken, the bone in question was an arm bone with NO break in it. Maybe I'm wrong here - please enlighten me if so. My points are that this whole tragedy took on a life of its own and was fueled by rumors and sugar- coated stories. Nowhere in that report though does it mention my uncles Jim or Duane by name or any cousins - so the BS that I mentioned was not aimed at you JEC. And as far as I'm concerned, that report should not be viewed as anything truthfull as there is just too many wrong facts in it. This is not a slam to Mr. Downey in any way so don't make it into one! As for me being a caver - nope - as I stated in the first paragraph, I have only been in Schroeder's, so unless your refering to my post saying I wanted to be with my family, friends, and cavers... that is the only time I have EVER claimed to be a caver. Although you and I both know - I did damn good in Schroeder's!! As for the "MEDIA CIRCUS" you refer to - I hardly would call 3 reporters from the local papers and 1 with the local news a CIRCUS. They were all briefed on what they could and could not report on and even the county coroner e-mailed them all and thanked them for their professionalism and dignity in reporting. As for the national and even international attention - that was due to the story being picked up via the Associated Press and the fact that the story has been known around the world for the last 41 years! You make it sound like all the papers and news stations that picked up the story where there personally. NOT !! As for everyone else that was there ( close to 40) those that were there were there for a specific reason. 7 were with the coroner or State Police. 4 were there as either fire or medical support and the rest were family specifically picked because of their association to the cave. As for Bill Mitchell bringing out the remains - he gathered them in the pit , and knowing my work that went into this, had me bring them out. The 3 that were at the bottom of the pit were down there for quite some time searching for the remains and even the group of experts that stayed behind to map the cave brought up another bone ,so I believe, as does all that were in there that day, that we found all that would be found regardless of how many trips to the pit you seem to think it would have taken. As for "SAD" - in my opinion it is sad that you found the need to take the bone in question earlier and keep it for the last 38 years and only retuning it to the gravestone in Nov. when I stirred up interest in this story. But then you retook it a few weeks ago and hid it again so that you wouldn't be "left out" of last weekends events. That to me is SAD. Or the fact that YES Clark Downey did pay for the gravemarker but yet it sat in your backyard for the next TWENTY FIVE years!! In any event - I just spoke to Bill Mitchell and he is still on CLOUD NINE as he put it so that is all that matters to me. He thanked me on how professional it was and that it went off without a hitch. THAT IS ALL THAT CONCERNS ME!! Not that certain family or friends or for that matter total strangers think differently. Sorry for the long post but I obviously had something to say. For all of you that have supported me - I thank you!!
Christian Lyon
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Post by guanonoggin on Jul 3, 2006 8:07:55 GMT -5
Woah dudes! Family Fued strikes again. Survey says: Bad Karma Peace
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