NSS Groupie?

[Clint Neill]

In the "It's Official" post Azurerana advised to not become an NSS Groupie or to allow the society to do one's thinking.

Anyone care to elaborate ?

Thanks!

[Azurerana]

First of all, welcome aboard and to the NSS!
Since it is my statement, I'll clarify. THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION. You are free to disagree, and since I'm a tolerant sort, I'll even listen, and likely learn something. The following does not reflect the opinion of US Cavers Forum as an entity in the slightest.

In the 1960s, as a reaction to student protests, conservative people in hardhats (ironically!) took to the streets, chanting "My Country Right or Wrong." NSS Groupies are people I define as NSS members, (sometimes but not always Society committee, BOG or other functionaries) who have that same attitude-- "My NSS Right or Wrong-- I am a true believer in the NSS whatever it says or does or is alleged to have said."

The NSS is a good thing. Probably 90% of their suggestions are reasonable, appropriate and good advice for people who are inexperienced, and up to 80% for people regardless of their experience level. But the NSS is a human institution. As such, it is imperfect. It makes mistakes. The NSS is a national organization. Caves and cavers vary by region. Example: Dressing for caving in Minnesota is gonna burn you up in Southern New Mexico. In the western US, water in caves is extremely precious, and one avoids stepping in the water if you can possibly avoid it. In the Midwest/East, many caves are at least partly wet, in fact, some flood to the ceiling. It is less damaging to the cave to walk down the middle of a chert floored stream than be continually scrambling up and down mud banks, collapsing them. Yet, some in the NSS try to make national 'rules' for appropriate dress and underground behavior.

For many many years, the NSS recommended at least 3 people on a cave trip, so one could stay with the injured party while the other went for help. The recommendation changed that there should always be four. For many years they recommended no more than 20 people in a caving party. Now they are down to no more than 10. The trouble is: these NSS recommendations are looked at by state and federal agencies, who make rules which require 4 people, or do not permit more than 10 on a trip...not taking into account the purpose of the trip, the carrying capacity of the cave, or who the people are, or what is their familiarity with the cave. The NSS recommends wetsuits for extended periods of wet caving. Most wetsuits, even used ones, are not cheap. Whether or not one gets hypothermic in cave water depends on a lot of factors--how much you are moving, how fat or skinny you are, if you have a high or low metabolism, how long the trip is, how long your body core is immersed...I wear polypro in cave, and am nice and toasty, even if soaking wet. But some cave manager burrocrat reads the NSS recommends wetsuits, so that gets written into the rules,and if you don't own a wetsuit, you don't go.

There are gearhead NSS people and non-gearhead NSS people, just like there are some who are quite wealthy, and some who are dirt poor (the latter tend to live where the caves are.) It cost me less than $35 to start horizontal caving 20 years ago, and most of that was for a Justrite headlamp, a MSA helmet (still the industry standard for working miners; now recommended AGAINST by the NSS) and a bright shiny new Minimag (I had one flashlight). If you were to kit out with most NSS recommended gear today for horizontal caving you are up to about $150 or so at a minimum.

The NSS has put out some very good "how-to" books on cave rescue, survey, photography, conservation, vertical technique, cave restoration, and so forth. They are good information. I recommend you read many of them. However, they are not the "only'" way of doing things. (If you ever want to get in a big discussion, ask a Missouri caver about NSS surveying standards and techniques Or vice versa. It's only been in the last 7-8 years that they've (sort of) converged. Like any group, there are some NSS members who get into positions where they can institutionalize their personal favorite ways of doing things. And they try to do so.

How do such books get written? People (cavers like you and me) try something and it works. They write an article or a book chapter. Then the NSS Groupies read it and decide it is Holy Writ, and is the only way to do something. NOT!

Another Groupie tactic is illustrated here: Once you've been around a while, you no doubt will get into discussions about cave location disclosure. The NSS has a written policy which is quite reasonable. Ditto on the collection of specimens from caves. www.caves.org/info/policy.shtml However you will find many NSS members spouting that you NEVER give out cave locations, and you NEVER collect anything from caves. If you hear a sentence in which both "NSS" and "never" occur--go check it out for yourself in a written source. When you point out the written source, NSS Groupies will jump up and down claiming that you are misinterpreting the words on paper.

That said--I'm a Life member of the NSS. Have no plans to go away. Intend to keep learning about caves and caving until I die or get senile. I work hard with the NSS on things I can work with them, and refrain from assisting with things I don't agree with. I'm tolerant of anyone trying anything, but intolerant of people telling me the way things *have* to be done.

Hope this explains it.
Azurerana

[Brian Roebuck]

azurerana said:

If you hear a sentence in which both "NSS" and "never" occur--go check it out for yourself in a written source. When you point out the written source, NSS Groupies will jump up and down claiming that you are misinterpreting the words on paper.

Hope this explains it.
Azurerana

So to sum it all up you are saying - NEVER let the NSS tell you how to do things!

Just kidding Azurerana ;D I just couldn't resist he he! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[madratdan]

Hope this explains it.

I think you hit the subject right on the head. Caving is not a black and white sport, and contains all shades of gray.

[Clint Neill]

Thanks for the enlightening and eloquent explanation! There's a lot of good information there that would have taken years to learn through experience alone!

(And to Dr. Beaner --- for shame, for shame! I bet you throw rocks at beehives, too!)

[Brian Roebuck]

clinto said:

Thanks for the enlightening and eloquent explanation! There's a lot of good information there that would have taken years to learn through experience alone!

(And to Dr. Beaner --- for shame, for shame! I bet you throw rocks at beehives, too!)

It's all in fun here on the forum but when I do throw rocks at beehives they don't seem to take it that way!

[Azurerana]

Even though I have one toe over onto the dark side of 50, and these folks around here keep trying to co-opt me into TAG, I utterly refuse to wear a beehive hairdo!

[L Roebuck]

azurerana said:

I utterly refuse to wear a beehive hairdo!

But you would be so cool in a beehive hairdo. Ugh, but if you get a tall hairdo -- Homer Simpson, Bart or Lisa might mistake you for Marge. ;D