Kelly
Beginner
Posts: 129
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Post by Kelly on Sept 9, 2005 8:11:27 GMT -5
An "Axe man"! Lynn you crack me up!
The thing that bothers me, is that I am a life member. I did it through a sustaining membership over several years, which is the most expensive way you can get to be a life member. Had I known then how things were going to get, I would not have given the NSS all of my money for that.
Some people feel that I should not voice my opinion unless I'm willing to serve on the BOG myself. The way I feel is if I have an opinion, by gosh I have paid for the right to voice it as loudly as I can.
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Post by Jennifer on Sept 9, 2005 8:48:44 GMT -5
Well that's silly. All members have a right to voice opinions and suggest improvements. There are only 12 BOG members and 12,000 members so it's not really reasonable for everyone with a legitimate gripe to serve on the BOG! Especially since more than 12 people have gripes and great suggestions for improving things! That just sounds like an excuse to not listen to your suggestions, which are always reasonable and well thought out. It's the BOG's job to listen to regular members and take our views into account while making decisions. Well I guess not my views anymore since I'm not currently a member.
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L Roebuck
Technical Support
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^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
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Post by L Roebuck on Sept 9, 2005 8:52:07 GMT -5
Well durn Kelly...from what I have seen Tom's main purpose seems to be to axe a whole lot of caving volunteers. Guess my perspective is different than many others on a variety of things. ;D I have been watching how Speleopolitics works and it seems to be different in many aspects than regular politics. Strange - don't you think?
I know what you mean Kelly as I am also a life member. Membership in any volunteer group to me is equivalent to being a stock holder. As stock holders in the NSS, I feel it is not only our right as members but our obligation as members to voice our opinions. Think about it for a moment .... if the NSS had no members and no volunteers - would it exist?
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Post by Jennifer on Sept 9, 2005 9:09:06 GMT -5
Volunteers need to be continually treated with respect, thanked for their work, receive clear communication, and encouraged in their efforts -- not booted out on their butts without notice or treated so poorly they get fed up and quit. That seems to happen much more than it should in the NSS, which is extremely unfortunate and hurts the organization. I don't understand why the NSS leadership doesn't seem to understand, or care about this. It's driving devoted members out of the society. How can that be good??
There seems to be a pervasive management problem within the NSS that is very discouraging not only to me, but to an awful lot of other long-time members. There are a string of incidents in the last couple of years that have been extremely discouraging (library, Avis, BB moderators getting booted, to name just a few). It seems that when people offer constructive criticism and suggestions, that information falls into a bureaucratic black hole. I hope some of our leaders wake up, realize members are getting disillusioned, and understand that these sorts of things are driving members away at a time when the NSS is starved for money and support. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. Many of my fellow grotto members have let their memberships expire, too.
Many NSS members (including me) have stepped up to the plate many times to help over the years, worked hard on important projects, provided suggestions for how to improve various things, but many of us have not been shown the appreciation or respect that we deserve. That is the wrong way to run an all-volunteer organization.
Food for thought.
Well I'm going to stop yakking and get to work now. Talk to you guys later! I like this board! ;D
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L Roebuck
Technical Support
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^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
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Post by L Roebuck on Sept 9, 2005 11:45:52 GMT -5
Amen!
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Kelly
Beginner
Posts: 129
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Post by Kelly on Sept 9, 2005 13:44:07 GMT -5
Okay, now Lynn and Dan. Please explain the STFU stuff. Did one of the NSS DB Ad Hoc say that to one of their volunteers?
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L Roebuck
Technical Support
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Post by L Roebuck on Sept 9, 2005 13:49:45 GMT -5
Apparently that was just Wayne's way to try to manage volunteers as he said it to the mods during the time of the moderator emails concerning the board crashing. But let me add that at least he did come back and apologize later which was a descent thing to do.
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Kelly
Beginner
Posts: 129
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Post by Kelly on Sept 9, 2005 14:13:39 GMT -5
I see! It would leave a bad taste in my mounth too, but I guess everyone has those days where everything kind of spirals out of control. I've never used the phrase STFU, but I have told people to "shut up" and childish stuff like that.
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Post by Cindy Heazlit on Sept 10, 2005 19:12:24 GMT -5
Sounds like Wayne was letting his emotions run ragged during a time of extreme stress. At least that's what I'd hope.
As far as volunteers goes - there was a time when I spent hours each week working for the NSS at various levels. I donated hundreds of dollars too. That ended when my volunteering threatened someones "turf", and the NSS allowed those individuals to destroy some great work that would have benefited the caving community. When I contacted the BOG all I got was refusal to discuss the issue. And I'm afraid that included Hazel B.
I too am a life member, who recently told a BOG member that I would quit the NSS if I had a normal membership. What happened to my wonderful NSS?
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L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
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Post by L Roebuck on Sept 12, 2005 12:26:52 GMT -5
Uh-hun, just Wayne's reaction and his suggestion to the powers that be, that " if the DB is continued, or brought back the moderator team should be picked from scratch by the new DB administrator.", instead of merely suggesting removal of the moderators that were irritating him.....seems evident he really stressed out.
Oh well...it's all just muddy cave water under the flowstone now, eah?
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Post by Azurerana on Sept 12, 2005 15:40:02 GMT -5
I too am a life member, who recently told a BOG member that I would quit the NSS if I had a normal membership. What happened to my wonderful NSS? Who knows? However, as one life member to another, there is a way to quit. Resign, write a letter to the office, ask to be taken off the rolls, and I bet they will. I know people who have 'officially resigned' from the Catholic Church by writing such a letter and sending copies to the parish priest, bishop and the Vatican. Now, some people might think that a bit funny or extreme, but that's another top-down organization where good ideas fall into a black hole if you aren't part of the heirarchy. And some there have no chance by accident of gender to be part of their heirachy, and often were signed up against their will as children. I'm on the verge of submitting such a letter to another caving org which I've been a member of since I began caving, and which is not being run on a democratic basis, since the powers who are and run it are not the elected reps, the latter of which are too wimpy to do anything about a situation which I am butting my head against. I wish I knew why cavers can't play together well, take turns, and not be so petty, and why we always have to wait for people to die for change. I don't even want people to do things my way-- just to listen to all and make the best decison for the caves and ALL cavers.
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Post by mudcrawler on Sept 19, 2005 21:56:31 GMT -5
The NSS is you, not someone else, and when you point your finger, there are three pointing back at you, as Dire Straits sings. I can’t believe this little whining and complaining party going on (and on) here, and how you are willing to demean yourselves so in public. You're not making the NSS look bad, only yourselves. In fact, you're giving us all an idea about why it was decided to start over with moderator assignments.
I understand that Wayne was told to begin from scratch, including moderators. He didn't initiate the concept. I also understand that the letter from Tom to the Moderators was not an angry or accusatory one, and singled no one out, but simply said than the forum would be managed differently in the future. Big deal.
Managers are in the unenviable positions of having to make decisions about what is best for the whole Society, not what will keep a few squeaky wheels from getting pissed off (again). And sometimes egos get stepped on. Volunteers (and employees) often seem to think, or at least tell others, they are/were doing a great job and were/are always in the right, and then cover their embarrassment about no longer having a Position Of Authority with bravado and accusations of being done wrong. They may not see or present the larger picture, not figure that maybe the boss wants a job done differently, tor not pause to think that maybe things are just moving on in a different way. They can't imagine that they weren't the best person for the job.
The moderator decision has been made, and the NSS’s forum is going well with the revised management plan – get over it and move on like adults. Don’t you want the NSS discussion board to succeed? Angry because it can do so without you? The Society is not a busy-work socialist organization that has to keep every volunteer in place until they resign or die, at the expense of what is best for the organization.
The NSS – the concept, organization, and members -- is the best thing that ever happened to caving, caves, speleology, exploration, caving safety, techniques, and equipment, and caver fellowship. If you can’t see that, nor see a reason to support and strengthen it, but instead see it as something that should be serving and kowtowing to your egos, then I guess you have many years of bitching ahead of you.
Or go ahead and quit the NSS, as some of you have threatened. You can’t escape yourselves however. If the NSS means nothing more to you than your ego and one or two people (out of the 12,000 who ARE the NSS) who have pissed you off or not done something the way you think it should be done, then evidently you can't see any further than yourself.
Go bitch about something else and some other club. The rest of us will continue to work to strengthen the NSS and support its goals and the work it does. We’ll keep working to keep the society a “happy family” rather than stirring up things up to trash it and bring it down.
Azurerana wrote: “I wish I knew why cavers can't play together well, take turns, and not be so petty, and why we always have to wait for people to die for change.” Why indeed. The petty complainers on this thread will have to answer that.
Mudcrawler
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Post by madratdan on Sept 20, 2005 7:36:23 GMT -5
This is a rather interesting rant. Would you care to put your name behind it? (I'm guessing your a female, and if so, will understand why you want to remain anonymous)
You are correct. Did someone's post say his letter was angry or accusatory?
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L Roebuck
Technical Support
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Posts: 2,023
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Post by L Roebuck on Sept 20, 2005 9:26:16 GMT -5
Yes, indeed this is an interesting rant from a person (stalagbabe) who doesn’t seem to have the integrity to add their real name to the post so that the post might be taken seriously.
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Brian Roebuck
Site Admin
Caver
Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
Posts: 2,732
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Sept 20, 2005 16:15:48 GMT -5
Mudcrawler sez:
"The NSS is you, not someone else, and when you point your finger, there are three pointing back at you, as Dire Straits sings. I can’t believe this little whining and complaining party going on (and on) here, and how you are willing to demean yourselves so in public. You're not making the NSS look bad, only yourselves. In fact, you're giving us all an idea about why it was decided to start over with moderator assignments."
<SNIP>
Mudcrawler you are entitled to an opinion and on this forum you can actually express it without fear of being removed, edited, or belittled. Indeed we are members of the NSS and as such we are the NSS. As part of the NSS we should be listened to and encouraged to try to make things better. Change can be very frightening to organizations and often is savagely avoided.
Why is it that the NSS forum appears to me to be so controlled, the members posts moderated down to remove anything that would be controversial, critical or negative, and the persons running it being so paranoid of the opinion of the users? I don't get it. We should be able to express ourselves within reason (using tact and not personally attacking each other) and argue the merits of what the NSS is and where it is going. As you say - we are the NSS. Aren't we?
I know the people you refer to roughly as "immature whiners who are mad that they lost their sacred NSS position of power". Well I know better. They are some of the best people in the NSS. Why? Because they cared enough to volunteer and actually do something instead of being like many of the 12,000 other members who are content to simply be members (nothing wrong with not being a volunteer so don't take offense folks). I see how this group of volunteers have been treated. The volunteers have been set aside and now appear to be the target of those that may wish to discredit them. That's a great way to treat well meaning members who care enough to try to help. Managers do not have to be abusive to people just because they have tough decisions to make. Good managers find better solutions. I cannot understand why someone such as yourself would post what you have without even asking the reasons behind what this forum is about. Do you know any of the people you refer to? I doubt it since I do know them and you are way off the mark. You assume much and it shows that you do not have all the facts.
This forum is growing. It is not intended to attack the NSS nor any of it's members. I hope the NSS forum is successful as well but I do not wish to participate in it at this time for reasons I have been trying to explain. What this forum is all about is the freedom to discuss cave related issues (NSS or not) without a heavy-handed dictatorship suppressing the content. Yes there are moderators to keep things civil (hopefully) but I feel free to say what I like here. On the NSS forum where I was previously a member I did not feel that same freedom. Until things change I'll stay here.
As I said you are indeed entitled to your opinion and can express it here. If I were to do a similar post to the NSS forum expressing my discontent with things as they are I doubt I would be treated as nicely as the operators of this forum have treated you.
It is obvious from your post that you have intimate knowledge of some of the behind the scenes activities in rebuilding the new NSS forums. It is also obvious to me that you do not know the persons running this forum or understand their intentions. Perhaps tolerance of opposing opinions is something that you may want to consider. The NSS is not God. The NSS can not keep me or anyone else from caving or enjoying caves, cavers, or freedom of speech. While I still endorse the NSS and what it stands for I do not have to agree with the policies and actions of those in power.
Brian Roebuck 34626
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Post by Jennifer on Sept 20, 2005 21:11:03 GMT -5
I'm researching an article about selecting good volunteer opportunities and found something that I think is very relevant to this discussion, and to the NSS in general. The entire article is available on Charity Channel. charitychannel.com/publish/templates/default.aspx?a=4066&z=24--------------- "The longer people volunteer and the better they know you (your organization), the better equipped they are to add value through their ideas. All you have to do is provide a forum for those ideas to be bubbled up, seriously considered and when viable, acted on. Wasting volunteer talent and time is worse than wasting money because volunteer time can be regenerated on an individual basis. Money you have to earn. Volunteer time is given and as long as you preserve the relationship with a little forethought and preplanning, you stand a very good chance of reaping the benefit of this recurring resource for your nonprofit."
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Post by Jennifer on Sept 20, 2005 21:54:32 GMT -5
Oh, one more thing tonight... I really am not sure exactly what all happened with the board moderators, just what I've read here. I personally have no problem with the new board and post there too. But having said that...
Mudcrawler, you obviously do not know the people you are criticizing. I have gotten to know several of these folks over the last couple of years and they are among the most dedicated volunteers and cavers I've ever met. Who are you and what do you do for the NSS? I can tell you that one of the people you're criticizing worked with my grotto for over a year and a half and devoted hundreds of hours to working on the NSS convention. She did a fantastic job. And that was only one of the volunteer jobs she's taken on since I met her. Some of the others devote equally large amounts of time to other very worthwhile caving-related causes. These people are smart, energetic, dedicated, and do a great job at whatever they put their minds to. These folks are not squeaky wheels, they're fantastic assets to the NSS . It's too bad the NSS didn't agree.
And this quote here makes it obvious that you do not understand the role of managers. Managers should be in constant communication with both employees and volunteers so everyone knows exactly where they stand, know for sure whether or not they're doing the job that is expected of them, and how they can change course if they need to do their job differently...
------------ Managers are in the unenviable positions of having to make decisions about what is best for the whole Society, not what will keep a few squeaky wheels from getting pissed off (again). And sometimes egos get stepped on. Volunteers (and employees) often seem to think, or at least tell others, they are/were doing a great job and were/are always in the right, and then cover their embarrassment about no longer having a Position Of Authority with bravado and accusations of being done wrong. They may not see or present the larger picture, not figure that maybe the boss wants a job done differently, tor not pause to think that maybe things are just moving on in a different way. They can't imagine that they weren't the best person for the job. --------------
In summary, throwing away dedicated volunteers is just stupid.
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