regor
Beginner
regoR
Posts: 21
|
Post by regor on Nov 21, 2008 10:45:23 GMT -5
A few of you know me! There is a situation going on that you need to be aware of! HELP!!! Please go to: forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7459&st=0&sk=t&sd=aRead what is going on! Chime in! Write the BOG and the Officers of the NSS I feel the very soul of the NSS is threatened If we allow this to happen! Roger Haley Huntsville Al [AKA ground zero] |
|
L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
|
Post by L Roebuck on Nov 21, 2008 12:14:21 GMT -5
Hey Roger I moved this thread to the NSS Discussion topic since it isn't about caves or caving. So what's the situation?  Humm should the Friends of the NSS Library yahoo group should be activated again? Reference: groups.yahoo.com/group/nss-fol |
|
regor
Beginner
regoR
Posts: 21
|
Post by regor on Nov 21, 2008 13:09:43 GMT -5
Please go out and read what is going on.
This is the biggest FIRE STORM I've ever seen with the NSS
|
|
|
|
Post by madratdan on Nov 21, 2008 19:46:37 GMT -5
Just to let everyone know, you need to join and be logged into their DB in order to follow Roger's link.
|
|
L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
|
Post by L Roebuck on Nov 21, 2008 20:16:49 GMT -5
Please go out and read what is going on. This is the biggest FIRE STORM I've ever seen with the NSS But a nice little summary on this forum would be so handy.  ;D |
|
Brian Roebuck
Site Admin
Caver
Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
Posts: 2,732
|
Post by Brian Roebuck on Nov 21, 2008 20:19:01 GMT -5
Just to let everyone know, you need to join and be logged into their DB in order to follow Roger's link. Yes thanks Dan. Many members here may not be members of that forum and cannot follow the thread. Bummer dude!  Well maybe someone can do a "Cliffs Notes" of the saga for our readers etc?? |
|
|
|
Post by Jennifer on Nov 22, 2008 10:30:58 GMT -5
Here's a cliff notes version! I'm sure you all know the NSS sent out a request for proposals to expand the NSS office/library complex. Here's a link to a document that includes the RFP. www.caves.org/nss-business/reports/0811/PRES%200811.pdfAt the moment, one proposal has been submitted. Three BOG members and the Executive Director of the American Cave Conservation Association proposed moving the entire complex to Horse Cave, KY (near Mammoth). I can email you the full text if you want it. One disturbing thing to me is that the three BOG members who submitted this proposal are still planning to actually deliberate on the proposal the NSS should accept and vote on the winning proposal. Can anyone say conflict of interests? Huntsville is working on a proposal too. I personally have not been too involved in this until now because I think the whole project is stupid. This is why: The proposal process itself is not well thought out. How will the NSS pay for this expansion if they're already going to raise our dues because we don't have enough money coming in? There is no plan for how a new facility will increase our membership, increase revenue, etc. The NSS doesn't have any kind of plan in place (as far as I can tell) to first figure out exactly what we need to grow and thrive as a society, so asking for proposals right now for a new facility is nuts. I'm personally in favor of a new consolidated facility, but I'm also in favor of doing it in a way that ensures we'll get the most bang for our bucks. That means an orderly and thoughtful process of planning, fundraising, then purchasing/building a facility that meets the needs we outlined in the planning process. I strongly encourage everyone to go read the thread on the NSS discussion board and write to everyone on the BOG and EC with your thoughts. Lynn, I think now would be an excellent time to restart FOL, but now it needs to be "Friends of the Office/Bookstore/Library!" Or alternatively, it could be "Cavers for Responsible NSS Management!" Jennifer |
|
|
|
Post by madratdan on Nov 22, 2008 14:28:21 GMT -5
Jennifer, I believe this is the second proposal presented to the BOG. The first one came from Indiana in 2007. This request is nothing new.....that's for sure, I too feel anyone interested in this issue should write your representives direct and voice your openion on the NSS Discussion board. I wonder if any BOG members are involved in the Indiana proposal? |
|
Brian Roebuck
Site Admin
Caver
Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
Posts: 2,732
|
Post by Brian Roebuck on Nov 22, 2008 18:38:26 GMT -5
Thanks for the Cliffs Notes Jennifer. I too hope that sanity prevails in all of this. For a relatively weakly funded organization the NSS should be very sure that large expenditures be thought out completely. It is one thing for cavers to support organizations such as SCCi with our donations given to purchase our favorite caves - but for us to also spend significant cash on merely moving the NSS base of operations is not high on the list of things that we cavers get excited about. In fact I imagine it would be quite unpopular among the general caving populace given the increasingly serious issues our caves are facing. But I digress...
The fact that proposals are being made is fine. For that matter I can propose we move the NSS office to Mexico since the price of stuff there is cheap and great undiscovered caves and deep pits are all over the place. My proposal would be just as viable I suppose. Is it reasonable to our fellow cavers? Perhaps not so much. Hopefully this issue will not be swayed by political, territorial, or egocentric pressures and logic, planning, thought, and of course the wishes of the NSS membership will help decide what the best course of action will be.
|
|
|
|
Post by Azurerana on Nov 22, 2008 21:25:27 GMT -5
When I visited the NSS Office and Library in 2005 at their Open House with the Convention, the facility was overcrowded with stuff, and parking was impossible. One of the two buildings on site has a corner which has slumped precluding a second story for additional space, and the other (which we did not visit and I'm not sure if they even owned at the time) supposedly has some major problems as well. While I understand and commend the commitment of the Huntsville Grotto, it is only one of over 200 NSS grottos, and no doubt, not the only one which can assist the paid staff with occasional necessities.
I disagree with Jennifer over the three BOG members : " One disturbing thing to me is that the three BOG members who submitted this proposal are still planning to actually deliberate on the proposal the NSS should accept and vote on the winning proposal." This is the way a representative democracy works: from the smallest town council to the US Congress, the people who make a proposal ALWAYS deliberate and vote on their own proposals. I agree that people with strong opinions should call and email the BOG and EC, but these officers are tasked with doing what is best for *all* the NSS, not just TAG.
If the NSS wants to remain an insular organization with service only to known member cavers as its mission, the HQ could be anywhere in the US and accomplish that end. If the NSS wants to make outreach to the public more of a focus, with the intent of capturing more members and money and doing more good for the caves, Kentucky would be an excellent move, IMO.
No one thinks of caves and Huntsville except cavers, and vertical cavers at that; The number of cave interested people who go to Kentucky and who might be educated by locating there is many times that of Huntsville. If the NSS wants to keep the office in Huntsville, and continue to preserve Shelta Cave, that's fine. But by moving the Library and Museum to Kentucky, in concert with Kentucky's other fine cave resources, the NSS could move forward in ways we haven't even imagined.
PS-- this isn't "the biggest firestorm the NSS has ever seen--I know of several others at least as large and divisive. And yes, I have expressed my opinion elsewhere. As much as I appreciate my fine TAG brothers and sisters, they are only 3 states out of 50-- the BOG has to do what is the best for all of us
Az
|
|
|
|
Post by Jennifer on Nov 22, 2008 22:51:05 GMT -5
Just to add some additional info, I don't think anyone opposes the idea of expanding the office. I would support a proposal to move the office to another location if I felt it was in the best interests of the society's mission and its members. However, I don't think the Kentucky proposal will be best for us for a variety of reasons I won't get into right now. And in today's internet era, there is no reason why the NSS can't perform its mission from anywhere if we actually hire an executive director who can market us. Personally, I feel that hiring an exec dir should be step #1, then that person can help plan strategy to grow our stagnant membership and revenue (which building a new facility or moving to a new city won't cure), get going really good on fundraising and writing grants, which will then set the stage for new facilities. The order of this whole process just strikes me as backwards. How are we going to pay for something like this when our dues are going up to $40 next year because there's not enough revenue coming in for basic services? Where is the additional money going to come from? It seems to me that the planning portion of this whole exercise has been left out and it just makes no sense to me.
And I disagree about the BOG members deliberating on their own proposal. They're supposed to be serving all members, this is already controversial, and those of us in Huntsville now feel that we don't have a fighting chance even if we come up with the most brilliant proposal in the world.
|
|
Brian Roebuck
Site Admin
Caver
Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
Posts: 2,732
|
Post by Brian Roebuck on Nov 23, 2008 8:59:00 GMT -5
Az,
I have to disagree with some of your opinions. There are plenty of people interested in caves around Huntsville. In fact Huntsville is in the heart of TAG - a three state area containing over 12,000 caves and many fine pits. What this means of course is that it is, like Kentucky, a prime Karst area. The fact that much of TAG is still agricultural also means that most of the populace is aware of caves, sink holes, pits, and to a lesser extent ground water issues. Unlike Kentucky's Mammoth Cave area Huntsville is in a period of growth due to the insurgence of highly skilled and educated Missile Defense Agency personnel - most in the engineering and scientific arena. These people bring with them a higher interest in education, recreation, and conservation. What a great time it would be for Huntsville to have educational facilities related to Karst and caves located right in town! We all know the Mammoth Cave area is a tourist trap of (inter)national fame. This area is also the center of pollution issues from the Transpark, poor ground water practices, and years of coal fired power plant effluent. Most of the folks going there are tourists that are interested in seeing the sights and not becoming a caver - especially a caver that furthers the goals of the NSS through scientific research (the very core of what the NSS started out to be). So the question begs - what interest would an NSS cave museum and/or library be to hoards of tourists? How does that further the goals of the NSS?
I also have to agree with Jennifer on the buffoonery of the lack of planning for this issue. I know it becomes emotional and that can alter the dynamics of any discussion but it really does need to be looked at from the viewpoint of "what is the need of the NSS" and then "how do we accomplish this need" with "how are we going to pay for it" thrown in for good measure. As Jennifer pointed out - dues are on the rise. Where does the money come from?
|
|
L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
|
Post by L Roebuck on Nov 23, 2008 9:17:46 GMT -5
At the moment, one proposal has been submitted. Three BOG members and the Executive Director of the American Cave Conservation Association proposed moving the entire complex to Horse Cave, KY (near Mammoth). I can email you the full text if you want it. Since I am playing catch up on this issue please do email me the full text Jennifer. I tried to review the past NSS Board of Governors Meeting Minutes but it seems a few meeting minutes may not be online and available to the membership. So of the recent minutes, I was only able to review the October 13, 2007 meeting minutes and August 11 & 15, 2008 meeting minutes. BTW: The FOL Yahoo Group is still in place. |
|
|
|
Post by madratdan on Nov 23, 2008 9:41:08 GMT -5
Another fact that is hard to overlook is the volunteer base that is in Huntsville. They do have 140 members making them the second largest grotto in the NSS. The closest grotto to Horse cave has 9 members listed. Why doesn't this area have more members in it's grotto if the interest in caves and the NSS is so high in the area? Could it be due to it's rural location?
|
|
|
|
Post by Azurerana on Nov 23, 2008 20:21:03 GMT -5
Where does more money come from? New cavers, of course. But the NSS doesn't *want* to recruit non-cavers to become cavers, so that's a non-starter. Grants? Other than generous donations from cavers, that source runs hot and cold, depending upon the economy, and does require a near full time effort to keep shaking that tree. Creative financing isn't the strong suit of the NSS, and many of it's efforts (like the Visa card) don't seem to appeal to cavers. The NSS could take a page or two from people like BCI, and entice people to donate money just because they like caves and want to help though they may never become cavers (just as most BCI members never volunteer or work with bats in the first person.) But they don't have any decent outreach to the general public. Some folks want such outreach actively discouraged, for fear of harm to the caves.But you cannot have new money sources while playing close to chest. Even $40/yr is going to cause more people to drop out of the NSS in my area-- I can about guarantee it.
Some of the discussion on various proposed locations (Indiana, Huntsville, Kentucky) elsewhere indicates that part of the difficulty is that while the NSS has a mission statement, it has no clear method of achieving those goals, other than what has accumulated over the years.
I'm all for a fresh approach, and the easiest way to achieve that is to shake up things geographically as well as in other ways. If this does no more than get some people thinking about what the NSS wants to become next, that's OK with me.
I find the argument that Huntsville has all these tech and science people, and that's why the NSS should be there pretty specious-- although there is that component in the society, it's pretty small. I'm in it, and know what an uphill battle it is against "real cavers." The Geo2 Section has less than 200 members. The Biology Section always meets in a smaller area at convention than the geology/geography section, though I don't have any figures on its' actual membership count. The CCMS (Conservation and Cave Management) section hovers around 75-100 members. Discounting the overlap (and there is a fair overlap in the three sections) that's less than 500 "scientists" in a membership of 12,000. Let's be generous, and double that to include teachers with masters' degrees as "scientists", people with engineering and computer degrees and backgrounds and so forth. That's still 1/12 of the entire membership. I can only think of about 30 of the 400 or so Missouri cavers I know who work as doctors, scientists, programmers, teachers or engineers--in short any technical job which requires a college degree. The NSS is always fighting to maintain the JCKS--such would not be the case if it really were a society of scientists.
And, despite Brian's assertion that TAG is the place to be, Huntsville is not. The 2005 convention is the only time I've ever been in Alabama; I can't count the number of times I've been in Kentucky or Tennessee, on one pretext or another. I"ve even been in Georgia on the way to other places more than in Alabama.
I agree that the lack of volunteers may be a problem, but how many volunteer, non-paid hours does it really take to run the office/museum/library? Bill Torode and his time is precious and hard to replace, but I haven't seen any quantified numbers as to how many total hours are donated each week. Before there is any talk of a paid executive director or caretaker, the extent of the job needs to be determined, and these things should be asked and answered before any move anywhere. Having 140 members in a grotto doesn't impress me. There are about that many cavers in St. Louis grottos, (and likely about 200 including people who have been in a local grotto in the last 5 years) and it's still about the same 30 people doing it all in terms of local volunteering.
And Dan-- why aren't there more NSS members? Like MIssouri, caves are plentiful enough in Kentucky that there is little absolute need of the NSS for cave access. Not to mention that $40 is still real money out here-- that's about what I spend for a week's groceries. Kentucky and Missouri are very similar in outdoors mindset, and it's not a very organized one. About 1/3 of the people who show up for an MVOR are neither in a grotto, nor NSS members, but they go caving. They are the people we need to entice.
No, I don't want the NSS to move to Missouri-- that could be a disaster in area where it's easier to get into a cave if you disavow knowledge of the NSS-- but having it in Kentucky would be a good thing. Hey, even if they went to Tennessee-- maybe McMinnville or Nashville -- that would be a good thing. But then again, I think the only way the NSS is going to survive and flourish and actually get some karst conservation done is to do more outreach and tapping sources outside the 12,000 people for personnel, money and clout.
|
|
regor
Beginner
regoR
Posts: 21
|
Post by regor on Nov 23, 2008 20:50:41 GMT -5
Hi all!
Sorry I have not replied as I have been busy bomb throwing on other fronts!
Jen has posted well here about what is going on.
Two questions I ask are:
1. How are the going to pay for this as the NSS is rumored to be in the RED again this year and at least Next!
2. What are they going to do with the current building? It can't be sold! Its TOO good to tear down.
They could end up paying for the upkeep and insurance on a vacant building?
There is a TOTAL lack of a Master Plan!
They are not looking at the BIG picture!
|
|
L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
|
Post by L Roebuck on Nov 24, 2008 9:12:25 GMT -5
I am still trying to catch up so In reference to: “ The Proposal to Relocate the NSS Office Complex to Horse Cave, Kentucky”, prepared by Mark Joop, Lee Flora, Randall Paylor, and Dave Foster. Perhaps I have missed it but --- I can not seem to locate the Conflict of Interest statement for the National Speleological Society Board of Governors. Does anyone have the link they could post? Also, I have not seen any indication that the National Speleological Society Board of Governors allotted funds in the NSS budget for a NSS Office, Library and Museum Complex in the Current Finances. Hummmm? Isn’t the purpose of the NSS Planning Committee to maintain a 'strategic plan' for the future of the NSS? Does any one know where the Strategic Plan is located? Thanks in advance for links to info.  |
|
|
|
Post by Azurerana on Nov 24, 2008 19:25:42 GMT -5
I am still trying to catch up so In reference to: “ The Proposal to Relocate the NSS Office Complex to Horse Cave, Kentucky”, prepared by Mark Joop, Lee Flora, Randall Paylor, and Dave Foster. Perhaps I have missed it but --- I can not seem to locate the Conflict of Interest statement for the National Speleological Society Board of Governors. Does anyone have the link they could post? It is Dr. Lee Florea. He is a hydrogeologist, and the caver who spearheaded the neverending drive against the I-66 Corridor near Somerset, KY, started the Kentucky Speleological Survey, put sinkholes on the radar screen of the Kentucky Geologic Survey during his time there. I would like to know the evidence that this proposal is a conflict of interest. A conflict of interest exists only where someone proposing a course of action has a direct financial interest in its outcome. Can anyone cite such an interest in this proposal? People and organizations often call for proposals before talking finances. The NSS (and SCCI, for that matter) is well-known for looking at properties before they have cash in hand. I'm not sure how this is relevant to the discussion at this point. There is a reason they call it the BOG...it often moves with glacial slowness...and that is a good thing. I don't think we have to be worried about anyone pulling a 'fast one' over on them. Likely all they could do at this point (if they so voted) would be to sign a letter of intent. Does anyone know who the committee is? [/quote] |
|
L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
|
Post by L Roebuck on Nov 25, 2008 10:00:40 GMT -5
It is Dr. Lee Florea. He is a hydrogeologist, and the caver who spearheaded the neverending drive against the I-66 Corridor near Somerset, KY, started the Kentucky Speleological Survey, put sinkholes on the radar screen of the Kentucky Geologic Survey during his time there. I would like to know the evidence that this proposal is a conflict of interest. A conflict of interest exists only where someone proposing a course of action has a direct financial interest in its outcome. Can anyone cite such an interest in this proposal? Az, thanks for the additional information. I am still just looking for more information so I can make an informed decision. Be warned.....I do have more questions than answers. Ok for discussion purposes - here’s a quote from the proposal.... " Western Kentucky University (WKU), 30 miles distant in the city of Bowling Green, is a major driving force in the region, has a 100 million in endowments, and is the premier school for cave and karst studies in the nation. WKU annually offers a variety of week-long karst field courses at Mammoth Cave National Park." Doesn’t Lee Florea “work” as a Professor at Western Kentucky University? This may possibly be considered an indirect financial interest but he also serves on the NSS BOG. As an NSS member I have to question the motives behind this proposal. So wouldn’t it seem Western Kentucky University would benefit from the National Speleological Society moving to Horse Cave? The American Cave Conservation Association on the other hand would seem to be benefiting directly, especially, if allowed to display a portion of the NSS Speleo Museum in their American Cave Conservation Association Museum space. Also by leasing office space from American Cave Conservation Association wouldn’t the American Cave Conservation Association get its facility renovated and paid for by the National Speleological Society? Isn’t one idea behind having a space for the NSS Museum that the National Speleological Society makes the profit?? Ok and doesn’t proposing the National Speleological Society purchase a building that is in “within one block” of the American Cave Conservation Association seem um…well…just a bit fishy? How are 2 Cave Museums located just doors from each other in the same little town suppose to be a benefit to the National Speleological Society? To me the NSS call for proposals for the NSS Office, Library, and Museum is logical. Yes, I saw the call for proposals in the November 8, 2008 Department of the President report. The call went out November 8, 2008 and the proposal to Relocate the NSS Office Complex to Horse Cave, Kentucky was dated November 8, 2008. Anyway, I just do not understand how the NSS plans to pay for it? How many properties submitted in these proposals will still be available and on the market by the spring 2009 BOG Meeting deadline? On another note. I googled 218 E. Main Street Horse Cave KY and found no for sale properties list for that address. So who owns the property at 218 E. Main Street, Horse Cave, KY? I don’t but would be very interested to know who as well as what was suggested for the future planning for the NSS. BTW Az, Have you ever been to Horse Cave, KY? |
|
|
|
Post by Azurerana on Nov 26, 2008 13:45:29 GMT -5
anyone cite such an interest in this proposal? " Western Kentucky University (WKU), 30 miles distant in the city of Bowling Green, is a major driving force in the region, has a 100 million in endowments, and is the premier school for cave and karst studies in the nation. WKU annually offers a variety of week-long karst field courses at Mammoth Cave National Park." Doesn’t Lee Florea “work” as a Professor at Western Kentucky University? This may possibly be considered an indirect financial interest but he also serves on the NSS BOG. As an NSS member I have to question the motives behind this proposal. So wouldn’t it seem Western Kentucky University would benefit from the National Speleological Society moving to Horse Cave? About the only way I could see it benefits is that the NSS Library would presumably be made available somehow to its students. That would seem to be a good thing. The 'benefit' could also work the other way-- karst grad students available in a reasonable distance to assist in the management of the library-- and possibly, WKU contributing, financially, through student labor,or otherwise to both the Library and museum. I cannot see exactly how Lee would personally financially benefit from this. He is only one karst professor of a pretty good number of them at WKU. For many years, through their summer outreach classes, WKU has allowed non-degree seeking NSS members into its outreach classes. The only way I could see WKU benefitting is that people who come to the classes, could also conveniently visit the library/museum. Lee is by no means the only NSS member affiliated with WKU, though the only one on the BOG. Sorry, but I know the fellow, I voted for him, and don't think he has a nefarious purpose here, except to draw attention to the caves and karst of his home state. And the NSS benefits in telling its conservation story by having the Horse Cave example nearby. That depends on the terms of the lease in regards to facilities management how any such costs are shared. Leasing facilities does not preclude making a profit, but may relieve the lessee from some maintenance and upkeep duties. Cross-pollination. I don't see a conflict between the goals of the NSS and the ACCA, although those goals are not identical. To cite Huntsville-- only the workers get into the real space center, or the Arsenal, but look at the ancillary "Space and Military" everything around town. Most arts and crafts towns support dozens of shops,and no one disses D.C. because it has a plethora of museums and monuments. I don't see this as anything but a win-win. Nor do I. But I didn't see how I was going to pay for college, (no parental assistance) and somehow, I got the job done. When the ACCA bought their property, they had some privatematching grant financing based on donations,and, I believe,some Kentucky money, too Likely most if not all...property in rural areas aren't selling at any price these days. (I typeset rural real estate ads, and we're just recycling at the moment.) I don't know. However, a lot of property for sale by owner is never listed anywhere except in the front yard. Yep. I was there when Horse Cave was still a stinking ex-creamery cesspool before the ACCA worked its magic and turned a run-down couple of blocks into a tourist attraction explaining caves to the public,and restored the Cave to a tour cave. The ACCA doesn't have the focus on cavers that the NSS has, but it, IMO, outdoes the NSS in terms of working with just about anyone to get cave conservation done. Entering a partnership doesn't bother me any more than the working relationship the NSS has with the NCA, or BCI. |
|
Kelly
Beginner
Posts: 129
|
Post by Kelly on Nov 26, 2008 16:27:58 GMT -5
Well, you know this topic will always cause me to weigh in my opinion!  The Kentucky idea is definitely better than the Indiana idea. At least its in a more central caving area and close(r) to an airport for access. I still think Huntsville makes more sense, though. The NSS could meet the same goals by moving to a better space right in Huntsville. Its centrally located, cheaper to move to, and has a support team of the Huntsville Grotto which is much larger than the local grotto in Kentucky. One reason Kentucky, Horse Cave, Mammoth Cave area would be a bad idea... If we centralize all of this caving stuff right around one area, people won't realize that karst issues are also associated with many other areas of the US. TAG has some of the best caves and karst around and yet their environmental state agencies are severely lacking in understanding and direction of these areas (trust me I work for the State of Georgia). Wouldn't it be better to have the museum and library in a place that would benefit the community in greater need of karst knowledge? Putting such a thing in Kentucky would be like preaching to the choir. Kelly |
|
|
|
Post by Azurerana on Nov 26, 2008 22:50:54 GMT -5
TAG has some of the best caves and karst around and yet their environmental state agencies are severely lacking in understanding and direction of these areas (trust me I work for the State of Georgia). Wouldn't it be better to have the museum and library in a place that would benefit the community in greater need of karst knowledge? Putting such a thing in Kentucky would be like preaching to the choir. Kelly While cavers are familiar in great depth with Kentucky, and tourists know of Mammoth, what I know of Kentucky is it is still pretty backward in terms of the general population understanding karst. If it weren't,I-66 wouln't be such a fight, and that the Transpark is a bad idea would be a no brainer. The NSS Geology section papers seem to indicate that Kentucky has major karst problems which are based in the people's surface knowledge that caves exist, but indepth ignorance of the system. I can relate to this-- locals love their Missouri wild caves, but they are positively foot dragging on karst groundwater issues, trash in sinkholes, etc. They just don't put the two together in their mind. What I know of Kentucky is similar,even on the basic leves. I wish someone from KY would chime in here. |
|
;D 
