L Roebuck
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^V^ Just a caver
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Post by L Roebuck on Aug 24, 2007 20:03:39 GMT -5
Great News! Thanks for Rick's address!
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Post by Brad Tipton on Aug 28, 2007 21:16:27 GMT -5
This Saturday night, September 1st, Dade County Rescue Squad will be hosting a fundraising dinner for Rick. It will be held on Creek Road at the landing zone for the Lookout Mountain Flight Park. in Wildwood, GA. Rick will be attending to thank everyone for their support in last few weeks. Dinner starts at 7:00 pm EST. Here are the directions. Note, the directions to the landing zone are at the bottom of the page. www.hanglide.com/directions.html
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Brian Roebuck
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Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Aug 29, 2007 5:49:15 GMT -5
Sounds cool Brad. Don't know if we can attend but we'll see what is happening and try to make it.
Thanks for the heads up!
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Post by Brad Tipton on Nov 4, 2007 21:06:36 GMT -5
I have great news on Rick! Two weeks ago he was able to surprise us all by attending rescue training for the 1st time since the accident. Today I recieved an email from Bruce announcing that Rick has taken his 1st steps without crutches. Word is he might be able to toss those crutches for good in the very near future. This is excellent news.
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L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
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Post by L Roebuck on Nov 6, 2007 7:33:08 GMT -5
That is such great news Brad!! Tell Rick Hi!
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Post by Brad Tipton on Nov 7, 2007 9:59:32 GMT -5
Here is an email Rick sent to everyone on the rescue. For anyone who isn't familair with the seriousness of Rick's accident and the subsequent injuries, the doctors were convinced Rick would never walk again. Our team doctor said it was the worst pelvis fracture he had ever seen on X-Ray where the patient wasn't already dead or paralyzed. Rick is living proof that a big heart, lots of determination, and a little luck can beat the worst of odds. To All My Heros,
Indeed, I am walking again! I've recovered from a few orthopedic accidents in my day, but never one quite this severe. The struggle has been immense both physically and mentally and continues to be so on some days. Yes, my first steps where a bit of a tearful moment, amid many that I've had over the past few months. At times the tears have been from the frustration, fear, and pain I've experienced, while others, at times, have been (selfishly) because I wasn't able to die a nice peaceful death in the cave that day. The tears I relish though are the ones that come when I think about that day in August, when, as I laid broken and dying, Andy shows up at my side. I was feeling kind of lonely right about that time and was really glad to see a friend. The clanking of gear, more friends show up, "Hi Brad, thanks for coming", gentle voices and helping hands, looks of concern, and more clanking of gear. Getting me turned back over and out of the water, going vertical, the nice drink of water I had while stuck at the lip, Brads' superhuman effort at the lip, and that nice comfy ride up the scree slope, all events of that day that evoke tears. These tears I relish are of gratitude and also of pride of association. Having now been on the patient side of the rescue, I'm even more proud to be a part of this band of professionals. You all are amazing, "each and every one a bad ass in his own right". Thank you for being there for me in my hour of need.
Rick
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L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
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Post by L Roebuck on Nov 7, 2007 19:06:47 GMT -5
Plain and simple - no doubt its a miracle! Rick you are still in our prayers! We're rooting for ya!
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Brian Roebuck
Site Admin
Caver
Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
Posts: 2,732
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Nov 7, 2007 19:15:45 GMT -5
Rick,
It's hard to keep a TAG caver down! We're all so glad you are doing so well after such an accident. You deserve a great deal of admiration for being tough enough to endure the pain and frustration of your struggle to heal up and walk again. Not everyone can do it and apparently your doctors are wondering how the heck you have come so far already! You're an inspiration to all of us. Keep up the hard work and chunk them crutches soon!
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jopo
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Post by jopo on Jan 9, 2008 16:45:57 GMT -5
Doing some catching up and just followed this thread. Glad a full recovery for Rick is expected. However I am very interested in the cause of the incident. There is no mention of what actually happened to cause the failure of the knot - indeed I cannot see any reference to the knot other than what seems to be the tying of one side of a double fishermans in the video ( might be called by other names but is the knot generally used to join two ropes).
I generally follow cave rescue threads to see what can be learnt from the cause. IMHO I think that knot failure is a very important subject to examine.
Jopo (Cave rescuer UK)
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Post by Brad Tipton on Jan 9, 2008 18:24:45 GMT -5
Doing some catching up and just followed this thread. Glad a full recovery for Rick is expected. However I am very interested in the cause of the incident. There is no mention of what actually happened to cause the failure of the knot - indeed I cannot see any reference to the knot other than what seems to be the tying of one side of a double fishermans in the video ( might be called by other names but is the knot generally used to join two ropes). I generally follow cave rescue threads to see what can be learnt from the cause. IMHO I think that knot failure is a very important subject to examine. Jopo (Cave rescuer UK) The cause of the accident was the barrel knot pulling through the round stainless ring. The knot didn't fail, it was actually completely intact. The diameter of the rope they were using didn't provide the knot the bulk it needed to be an effective stopper.
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jopo
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Post by jopo on Jan 10, 2008 6:30:39 GMT -5
Thanks for that Brad. Do you mean that a barrel knot was simply tied into the end of the rappeling rope and this was what was relied upon as a belay? This is such a incredible thing to do that I hope I am wrong.
Jopo (Cave rescuer UK)
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Post by madratdan on Jan 10, 2008 10:06:12 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum, jopo. Just guessing...... but I believe they were on a pull down type thru trip using two ropes tied together. The knot pulled through the hanger and allowed the freefall. Hopefully someone who was there will chime in and give us some more facts.
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Post by Brad Tipton on Jan 10, 2008 18:49:32 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum, jopo. Just guessing...... but I believe they were on a pull down type thru trip using two ropes tied together. The knot pulled through the hanger and allowed the freefall. Hopefully someone who was there will chime in and give us some more facts. I guess I was being rather vague in the last post. I know the incident well since I was the 1st rescuer there and I knew the victims since they were on my rescue team. They were attempting a pull-down trip using a 10mm static line. Instead of doubling the rope and rapelling on 2 lines, the idea was to take minimal rope, only enough to reach the bottom of each drop. They tied a standard stopper knot in the end of the rope and planned to pull the rope down using a small lightweight cord. This technique is well known, but it isn't commonly used in the U.S. Yet, the technique wasn't their downfall. Where the rigging failed was the diameter of the rope in contrast to the diameter of the pulldown ring. Unlike an oval screwlink, the round ring required a knot with more bulk than what the 10mm rope provided. The result was the knot slipping through the ring completely intact. If they had used an 11mm rope, it would be unlikely the knot could have pulled through under Rick's weight. The ring is the same type ring climbers install for top belays. I do not know the exact diameter of the ring in Pryor Springs.
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jopo
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Post by jopo on Jan 20, 2008 14:11:12 GMT -5
I am afraid I have to disagree. The technique - quite literally - was their downfall.
Using just one karabiner or maillon this method could be made safe. Pass the tail of the load rope through the belay ring. Attach the tail to a karabiner, preferably screwgate - or a suitable size maillon rapide - using a suitable knot and pass the karabiner, or maillon, over the load rope. Attach the recovery line to the karabiner. You now have a safe load rope attchment which can be pulled down.
This is the standard method of pull - through attachment in the UK, altough a thinner recovery line is not commonly used, rather one side of a doubled full strength rope. It should be noted that UK and European cavers more commonly use single rope descenders.
A variation is to simply thread a fig 8 loop around the load line but one has to take care that when pulling through it is done with care to prevent nylon on nylon burning.
I hope this technique does not become common in the US as you have enough rescues already. I am really surprised that anyone should rely upon a knot NOT passing through a ring. Rope is soft and dynamic. A jerky descent - for whatever reason - would effectively tend to force the knot thru trough a steel ring. I am not sure but from watching the video the two guys involved seemed to by working at a outdoor pursuits business. I hope they are not teaching this jamming knot method of belaying pull throughs.
Jopo
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Post by Brad Tipton on Jan 20, 2008 19:35:20 GMT -5
I hope this technique does not become common in the US as you have enough rescues already. Jopo If the technique your referring to is the knot block, other than this incident, I am not aware of another accident in the U.S. using this method. The use of the knot block is quite common in TAG without incident. As I pointed out in the 1st post, the accident wasn't the result of the method used, it was a result of utilzing the method with a round stainless ring instead of an oval mallion link. If you can show me that you can force a knot block through an oval mallion link I would be inclined to both agree with you and revise my own pulldown technique.
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Jan 20, 2008 23:54:38 GMT -5
"If the technique your referring to is the knot block, other than this incident, I am not aware of another accident in the U.S. using this method." www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58 (post #2) "On our first canyon with our new 8mm Canyon Pro rope - we set a knot block (figure 8) in a rap ring, and as my partner descended, I watched the knot pull through - a combination of small diameter rope and a larger than normal rap ring (or quick link; can't remember for sure)."
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L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
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Post by L Roebuck on Jan 21, 2008 9:42:20 GMT -5
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Post by Brad Tipton on Jan 21, 2008 20:10:51 GMT -5
Wow Jopo,
Quite a lot fellows tossing rocks at glass houses on that forum. One guy on there is calling me a fool while another posted just above him about the time that he "abseiled" down the wrong side of his rope on a pulldown. Nice.
Just because two American cavers fail to use the proper method on a pulldown and one gets hurt doesn't make all of us fools and all of you experts. I think we NSS cavers will be just fine without your condescending "expertise".
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Brian Roebuck
Site Admin
Caver
Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
Posts: 2,732
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Jan 22, 2008 6:52:46 GMT -5
Hindsight is 20/20 as they say. Even experienced vertical cavers can and do make mistakes. The best thing to do is learn from them so as not to repeat errors. Perhaps it would be best for discussions of such events to focus on foolish actions instead of foolish people. I am certain that any caver from any country who found themselves in trouble while caving in the Tennessee area would be proud and fortunate to have the team that rescued Rick assist them as well. Here's to caving safely and mutual respect.
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Jan 22, 2008 9:59:29 GMT -5
"Hindsight is 20/20 as they say."
Hindsight with this subject says Americans are busy glad handing and beating the bush and the Brits just cut straight to the chase. Those were some profound statements there, Doc. You trying some of your own meds?? Rebel
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jopo
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Post by jopo on Jan 24, 2008 10:34:23 GMT -5
From Brad Tipton
Sorry you feel that way Brad. I have just scanned the thread on UKCaving and can only see that the act was called foolish - and not any comment about yourself. I apologise if I missed it on the re-read. I find it strange, disturbing in a way, that you consider the thread condescending. Re-reading the thread I find it heartening that cavers can describe, to their peers, their own foolish actions.
Do you mean that NSS cavers are above learning? Or do you just mean that it is wrong to question?
I am just a humble UK caver who has been involved with cave rescue for 37 years and am happy to say that I learn something every time.
What is clear is that the UK thread explores several aspects of pull throughs which you personally may, or may not, be aware of, but is hopefully of some use to others. Something the US thread was not doing. Call that condescending if you like!
Jopo
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Post by Trey on Jan 28, 2008 9:02:10 GMT -5
Read a post on Tag-net this morning. The upper entrance of this cave has been closed by the owner due to this accident. I hope everyone takes the time to read the UK forum. There is plenty to be learned there. I agree with the Brits, the technique used was flawed. Trey Caplenor
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