Decent Bolting article worth reading

[Chad Dubuisson]

I found this while doing some research on bolting. Written for climbers, it applies to caving too.

tinyurl.com/6c4ypx

After seeing so many rusting, dangerous bolts in caves, perhaps this will help some of us. Everyone could use more knowledge when it comes to judging bolts.

[Rebel Rouser]

"Written for climbers, it applies to caving too."



Really? The "generally accepted standard" replacement bolt they mention is not a good caving bolt. What makes for desired bolting procedure in climbing does not necessarily translate to caving bolts.
The only way to eliminate rust is to use a non - rusting material...stainless/ titanium.

[Chad Dubuisson]

Apr 29, 2008 8:49:46 GMT -5 Rebel Rouser said:

"Written for climbers, it applies to caving too."



Really? The "generally accepted standard" replacement bolt they mention is not a good caving bolt. What makes for desired bolting procedure in climbing does not necessarily translate to caving bolts.
The only way to eliminate rust is to use a non - rusting material...stainless/ titanium.

I'm not quite sure exactly what your saying. I read the following:

"When choosing replacement bolts, the generally accepted standards are the Rawl five-piece bolt in both -3/8-inch and 1/2-inch widths"

Looking up those bolts for sale, I find:

www.acmeclimbing.com/browseproducts/Rawl-5-Piece-Bolts.HTML

www.greatoutdoorsdepot.com/powers-bolts.html

These are all, by my examination, stainless steel are they not? I see also in the picture the Petzl long life and other stainless steel anchors. While the bolts in the picture aren't a shiny stainless, that doesn't mean they aren't stainless, only that they aren't a polished stainless. Fixe stainless steel hangers are not shiny either, but are what they are.

They also go on to say the following:

"Use only stainless-steel bolts and hangers near saltwater. Carbon-steel bolts such as the Rawl five-piece can set up a galvanic reaction with stainless steel hangers; this is particularly dangerous in damp parts of the country or where there's acid rain, and it's safest never to combine the two."

I'm guessing most cavers can extrapolate that "damp parts of the country" might include an environment like a cave, but I guess we can't be too sure, so in that respect, I value your point.

I completely concur with Rebel Rouser's basic statement though, that placing anything but stainless in a cave for a permanent placement at an anchorage would be a serious dis-service to everyone. The only time I consider it acceptable to use galvanized steel bolts in a cave would be during a bolt climb, where the hole is over drilled, and when done (soon hopefully) and the route is cleaned, the bolt is tapped into the hole and plugged with mud. That's it. No other option is acceptable to me.

I'm actually quite excited about a new stainless that Fixe has come out with, it's a marine grade stainless that would be excellent for the caving environment, developed for sea cliffs;

fixehardware.com/marine-grade_hardware.htm

I personally plan to make the move to this grade of hardware for all future placements at anchorages. It looks superior to even the current stainless options on the market. It's pricey though.

I mention the above related articles simply because they increase general awareness of safety related issues in connection with bolts, something many cavers encounter at the tops of drops and pits. Many times I believe cavers are using very marginal, unsafe bolts out of a lack of knowledge. I feel it's a wonder we don't have more accidents, considering what I've seen in some caves.

There are obvious differences between what's acceptable to use in the corrosive environment of a cave verse a sandstone cliff in New Mexico. The improved knowledge about how to size up a good or bad placement and what kind of bolts are potentially dangerous applies to both cavers and climbers, and in that respect, I recommend reading the above site. One can take what they want from the article, but the more exposure you have to a topic, the better informed you are as a person and therefore can make decisions from a more informed viewpoint, possibly to your benefit.

[Rebel Rouser]

Looking up these bolts you can also find: store.ardensoutdoorsupply.com/power-bolts-carbon-steel.html

or
www.greatoutdoorsdepot.com/power-bolts-carbon-steel.html

The article does not specify SS rawl 5 piece bolts with the exception of placement near saltwater. There are many thousands of rawl carbon 5 piece out there being used in climbing. The rawl bolt has other issues besides the type of metal. The Fixe triplex looks like a better alternative although I have reservations about many cavers taking out and replacing the bolt to inspect it! The article does mention the Petzl long life as well as the Rawl compression bolt. I hope cavers are not using compression bolts.
If you want ultimate then here you go: www.greatoutdoorsdepot.com/ushba-titanium-glue-in-bolt.html

[mark620]

Stainless steel is subject to chloride stress corrosion when near salt water.

[Chad Dubuisson]

Jun 30, 2008 19:16:11 GMT -5 mark620 said:

Stainless steel is subject to chloride stress corrosion when near salt water.

This is very true, as they've found in Thailand, but the main information provided was intended to be relavent to caves. "Most" caves don't see saltwater corrosion as a significant issue.

I supposse for the ultimate, we could just put the Tortuga glue in www.ushba.com/catalog/tortuga.htm in all caves from now on, though it'll be expensive. Anyone wanna volunteer to be the first one to offer up the $20 per bolt to do the first cave?

[Rebel Rouser]

"I supposse for the ultimate......"


Is there an echo in here?





"Anyone wanna volunteer to be the first one to offer up the $20 per bolt to do the first cave?"



Been there .....done that. Rebel