Guns in State and National Parks

[L Roebuck]

Gun ban questioned in national parks
Stoney Sharp, WBIR.com

The case has brought light to gun laws inside national parks.

According to an official with the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, guns cannot be toted, and must be concealed inside a vehicle and unloaded.

U.S. Senator Bob Corker is one of 46 Senators who sent a letter to the Interior Secretary this past December.

They're asking that park-goers have the right to bear arms.

Article

[Azurerana]

Visitors to the Ozark National Scenic Riverways (NPS) can have guns, because hunting is allowed. Those in campgrounds must be cased and locked in vehicles, I believe.

I don't think guns in parks is a good idea. Too much alcohol around. Having a gun isn't a guarantee of safety. You all may have heard of the 6 person killing at the Kirkwood MO City Council meeting this week. City hall is right next to the police station, and right across the street from where most St. Louis area cavers park for the 'Meeting after the Meeting- (The pizzeria where Michael Devlin of Shawn Hornbeck/Ben Owenby kidnap fame worked.) The two Council people and the Public Works Director were unarmed: the two policemen (one outside the building and one inside) were armed. They are all equally dead -- at least some of the shots coming from one of the dead policeman's service revolver which was picked up by the perp.
The fellow who went berserk here apparently had some legitimate gripes with the city of Kirkwood. (I know from personal experience of a friend who was always having run-ins with Kirkwood's neighbor community Webster Groves -- small town government is just as vindictive, demeaning and snipy as high school. My friend was arrested for parking tickets which he thought he had paid, while moving a vehicle the city said he had to move (sans plates) because he didn't have the money to get it fixed to state standards. Yes, it was a junker, but they cut him no slack because of health issues which prevented steady gainful employment. These little towns want everyone to be white, prosperous and middle class. If you don't fit, they treat you like dirt.)


I don't want to live in a Wild West world. We're never going to stop all the loose nuts of the world, and if people in the woods have guns, I want them to be rifles or shotguns, and hunting game, not me. We need to concentrate instead on getting those loose nuts attached to society somehow and treated with more respect, so the gun doesn't become the answer.

[brianc]

azurerana said:

Visitors to the Ozark National Scenic Riverways (NPS) can have guns, because hunting is allowed. Those in campgrounds must be cased and locked in vehicles, I believe.

I don't think guns in parks is a good idea. Too much alcohol around. ]


To my knowledge alcohol isn't allowed in any state park! My thought is ,if someone wants to do harm to you they will! They use rifles and any gun they can get their hands on (and they will get a gun if they want) A concealed handgun is my only protection against this! Mace and pepper spray just pisses perps off ! The permit for legal handgun carry is stringent, requiring knowledge of proper use and legal use! I would want legal carry people with me any day!

[Azurerana]

brianc said:

azurerana said:

Visitors to the Ozark National Scenic Riverways (NPS) can have guns, because hunting is allowed. Those in campgrounds must be cased and locked in vehicles, I believe.

I don't think guns in parks is a good idea. Too much alcohol around. ]


To my knowledge alcohol isn't allowed in any state park!

It is allowed in Missouri. And on the Ozark Riverways. And floating every Missouri river. And in the National Forests. Some parks do not allow alcohol or glass on beaches. Some rivers have no-glass admonitions. Yes you have to be 21 and legal. (Lost of people think they'll never get caught and pay no attention to that-- underage folk get busted for beer all the time.)

But alcohol is most definitely allowed in picnic areas and in campgrounds. I can't imagine deer or turkey season without alcohol (which is why I stay out of the woods then.)

My thought is ,if someone wants to do harm to you they will! They use rifles and any gun they can get their hands on (and they will get a gun if they want) A concealed handgun is my only protection against this! Mace and pepper spray just pisses perps off ! The permit for legal handgun carry is stringent, requiring knowledge of proper use and legal use! I would want legal carry people with me any day!

If someone wants to harm you, they can clobber you with a tree limb or a well-aimed rock in a park. When correctly viewed, almost anything can be a weapon. I abhor concealed carry and have no respect for the people who feel that they are stronger by doing so. I'm all for the 2nd Amendment, and the right to carry and use guns. If a person wants a hand gun, and a gun permit, let him or her sling on a holster like Wyatt Earp and carry it out in public, and check them at the doors of public establishments like they did 100 years ago. I might make an exception for police, detectives, or other security personnel where the element of surprise is important to their job, but not for ordinary citizens. The people of Missouri voted down initiatives on concealed carry twice, and the legislature passed it over our objections. I've voted against everyone who voted for it since.

I just don't think anyone is out to get me that badly that I want a concealed weapon. The age of the duel is over. If someone walks up to me, I want to know if they are actually armed. And if it is concealed, the criminal has the drop on you anyway, and the concealed piece won't do you any good.

When your number is up, it's up, and that's it.

[kenredux]

"When your number is up, it's up, and that's it."

Ooo, Ooo, pick me, Mister Cotter, I got one!

A pig or cow can bark meow but a goldfish likes to sing
I saw a frog swim up a log but he fell and broke his wing.

[brianc]

Azurerana wrote:( I abhor concealed carry and have no respect for the people who feel that they are stronger by doing so).


I'm glad I only wasted my 2 cents on this thread and not a whole nickel!

[L Roebuck]

Heck, I have no problem whatsoever with "responsible" people carrying guns in State or National Parks. I see this as similar to the "responsible caver" theme but just like other groups there are flaws. So it is safe to say that not all "card carrying" handgun permit owners are responsible and not all "non-card carrying gun owner" are irresponsible.

[brianc]

Thanks Lynn! This is just a discussion, and you make it very friendly!

[L Roebuck]

Brianc you are right this is just a friendly discussion. Everyone has views so I thought I might as well toss my 2 cents in on this discussion instead of letting you guys have all the fun. Heck my family had a rifle in my hand at age 8. Supervised of course, but gun safety, proper care, hunting, skinning, etc, etc was taught at a very early age along with all the how-to's. But unfortunately I wasn't considered a very good marksman back then because I couldn't light a match stick from 50 paces with a 22 rifle.

I know of many families who carry guns for the purpose of hunting to put food on the table and hunting is one of the ways that over population of a species is controlled. Anyway, I do seem to recall some parks and natural areas do allow hunting.

So along these lines does anyone have any views about cavers who carry handguns caving? I have heard some cavers even say they would never go to a park without their pistole.

[kenredux]

"So along these lines does anyone have any views about cavers who carry handguns caving?"

Speaking for the Birmingham Grotto --hallowed be their name -- the gun toting cavers in our group have been too many to mention but I'll mention Tim King, the bug man, who exemplifies the grotto etiquette of guns and caves. Tim's long barreled blue steel Colt 45 revolver accompanied us on many caving trips but it was always carefully hidden away in the woods while we were inside the cave. Unlike some of the more eccentric members of our grotto, Tim didn't believe in carrying loaded guns into caves.

Time passed and with the addition of ladies and others to the membership of the Birmingham Grotto we became more effeminate and Tim's practices became our unspoken policy.

So today if you wish to pack a gun in a Birmingham area cave you'd best practice a policy of "don't ask; don't tell". Concealment in a cave is ok, I guess, but for the life of me I can't imagine what you would want to shoot.

[Brian Roebuck]

I just have to say that LAWS designed to keep LAWBREAKERS (ie: criminals) from having guns is about as effective as telling someone that they can't breath the air around them.

Thus the option for a law abiding citizen to carry a gun for defense against those who intend to do them harm is a good thing. I have met people carrying guns on trails in the middle of nowhere. It makes me wish I had mine along too just to even things up a little. I'd hate to have to whack a criminal over the head with my rappel rack to escape being robbed etc at gunpoint! It might bend the dang rack! A gun would be a much better tool to dissuade the n'er-do-well IMHO.

[L Roebuck]

Hummmm.... doesn't it seems like the "don't ask - don't tell " policy may be prevalent for many topics in the organized caving community and not only guns?

[Azurerana]

Lest anyone get the impression I'm some sort of gun control freak-- anyone else here actually have college credits in recreational shooting? I do. I got an A, btw. Most of my shooting has been of the clay bird, and church meat shoot (at targets) variety. Last time I picked up a gun was last summer-- folks from the MU Shooting team were putting on a skeet demo at a rod and gun club, and everyone took a whack at the claybirds, even those of us who are rank amateurs.

On the other hand, I've been at a caving event during turkey season, and had a drunk caver fire his shotgun about 15 feet from my head (just outside my tent) about midnight. He had to be wrestled down by three guys and the gun locked in someone ELSE's trunk until he sobered up.
(There was a no firearms rule, but it was turkey season and he didn't think it applied to him.) I think I first held a gun (an unloaded police pistol) when I was about the same age as Lynn and fired a shotgun when I was about 12. There are more guns going off around here on New Year's Eve than fireworks, or balls dropping.

I come from the part of the country where long guns are common,. My grandpa was always after some varmint (quail and rabbit make good eating) and I would be never so happy as if it were always open season on deer (anyone else know the song "Cartoon Animals" by Heywood Banks? "There's Bambi's mother, riding on a bumper") and feral hogs. We're one of the few places in the county where recreational hunting is actually holding its own.

However, to everything there is a season. I don't want to be forced to own a gun to leave my house, just because of trigger-happy paranoid people out there. I'm not trying to take this into a long 2nd Amendment discussion -- the law says you can use a gun to protect your home or family against intruders. That's fine. The law also bans them from public places, and all any business owner has to do is post notices at the door, and prosecute violators.

Parks are public places. Most national and state parks ban firearms, (except by commissioned law enforcement officers with arrest powers) because they also ban hunting. They ban hunting not so much because of being a wildife refuge (that too) but because there are too many city people (and actually, too many people) in populated areas. Even conservation areas which permit hunting ban uncased guns in parking lots, campgrounds and other 'public use' areas not specifically designated for hunting. Is it because they are anti-gun, or anti-hunting? Of course not. It's because too many people in too little space with too many guns is just an accident waiting to happen.

I've been on the other side of the park personnel thing, as a uniformed volunteer. Since my husband worked in a park (unarmed) for 17 years, I've got a really good idea what sorts of yahoos one is apt to encounter. (I'm all for pepper spray, by the way, and other non-lethal defense techniques. Not so sure about tasers, yet.) Heck, there are seasonals out there now who are afraid to take park visitors on a hike by themselves. While you always have the right to trust your gut about people, it would be a much sadder world if suddenly all strangers were looked on as armed enemies. That's not what we're here for. I also know of one case where cave vandals rode up in a non-ATV area on stolen ATVs, and took their stolen guns into the cave. The park person who helped capture them was unarmed; she just threw the bars on the main gate, and got both a park ranger and local deputies for help-- they were the ones who could make the arrest, she could not. But that was one incident in 20 years of experience at that park. And even though the perps were armed, a gun carried by the naturalist wouldn't have helped: she was out numbered from the get-go, without getting her backup.

I will defend responsible gun carriers (and in this state, that means taking firearms training of some sort) to my last breath. But that's also why I have no respect for people who insist on concealed carry. They aren't relying on their gun skill to get off the best shot-- they are relying on surprise and fear to keep others on their best behavior. I'd rather be on good behavior because I wish too, not because I'm worried about crazies. They haven't got the law enforcement training to shoot to wing, and shoot to kill only as last resort. (Even if you have the permit, and the gun, and you shoot someone (even just wound them) in most cases, there will still be a hearing in which your actions will be seen to be defensible, or not. ) And I'm sorry -- there isn't a single person who I know personally who boasts of having a concealed carry permit who should have one. The mere act of boasting proves that to me. My opinion, and I'm not likely to change it.

Self defense? Yes. Guns? Yes. Hunting? Of course! If you go backpacking in the far reaches of Glacier or Yellowstone, with bear and mountain lions and potentially insane hermits perhaps...though most people seem to hike with companions and cell phones these days, too. Concealed carry in crowds of people or around children, tourists and alcohol? Never.

[Azurerana]

On cavers taking guns into caves...where, and why, and it could be very painful to slip on the mud and shoot yourself.
"...Well, finally Irving got three slugs in the belly.
It was right outside the Frontier Deli.
He was sittin' there twirlin' his gun around,
And butterfingers Irving gunned himself down!..." --The Ballad of Irving

[L Roebuck]

Humm....I can't imagine why anyone would get the impression you were a gun control freak, Az?

Ah-shute, I didn't even know you could get college credits for shooting guns. Apparently I learned the old school way.....we only got credit "iffins we ain't shot nobody". ;D

Shooting a poor defenseless sign - is not cool.

[kenredux]

Shooting a poor defenseless sign - is not cool.

I dunno, Lynn, some signs need to be shot.

Like the no trespassing signs on the vast properties of absentee landowners such as shifty-eyed lawyers, buck grubbing doctors and giant corporations who give not a bee's butt that a state's natural beauty is an intrinsic condition of statehood and that controlled access rights for the people to visit their State's natural wonders is an implied condition of ownership.

Shooting signs is better than shooting shifty-eyed lawyers isn't it...well, isn't it?

[L Roebuck]

kenredux said:

Shooting signs is better than shooting shifty-eyed lawyers isn't it...well, isn't it?

Maybe so kenredux. ;D