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Post by happykillmore on Dec 21, 2006 20:40:19 GMT -5
When i first got into rappelling (i was free handing and instructed by a friend that there was a better way) I wondered if there were certifications, merit badges. How could a voluntary certification system , sponsored by the NSS serve our community? A 3 level certification system. The 1st level, a vertical certication could be just like it is now, sponsored by qualified members and could bring in the drive by rappellers who are often trained by newbies who do it on their own and often experiment early with various unsafe styles. Most sports have a certification and while i think it shoud'nt be mandatory , the lure of achievement would bring many into the NSS and improve on the overall safety of the sport The second level , extreme vertical could only be approved by the third level (team vertical or master vertical , like a master diver) and could help team leaders verify the qualification of their members on expeditions. It is very difficult accepting the recommendations of those you don't know for others you don't know , as to the extent of their qualifications for a 3000' expedition. While the 1st level isnt mandatory , it would be easy for a team leader to say that an "extreme vertical" certification is required for anyone on this trip to El Cap. This would take a load off any team leaders mind , especially if the qualifications were examining the applicants rack and inquiring as to how few bars they felt were unsafe at any time (especially if they had spacers) and making them aware of some of the risks on large walls along with the deaths , (without mentioning names) and what caused them. Certification would be very inexpensive and could bring many new members to the NSS and increase the safety of our sport long term. Perhaps we wouldn't have to make our own equipment anymore. The new memberships as well as those that re-join to grandfather in for their vertical certification (the lure of achievment is irresistable) would more than pay for the campaign which could be handled by NSS chapters. The NSS can handle the paperwork and its members control the certication. The 3rd level could only be achieved by accomplishment. I know of several on this forum including mr Rebel Rouser who is about to let me have it probably.
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Post by madratdan on Dec 21, 2006 21:21:52 GMT -5
I could see the vertical section working on a plan like this. Have you thought of contacting them and see what they have planned?
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 21, 2006 21:31:37 GMT -5
I am not sure if i know anyone in management at the NSS. I know many people in the NSS and some of them here probably do. That is why i thought this would be a good place to pose the question.
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Post by Azurerana on Dec 21, 2006 22:07:52 GMT -5
The major argument against certification (vertical, cave, etc.,) is that once an entity 'certifies' that another entity is 'certified' to do X or Y, the certifier has just increased his/her or the corporate liability. If I certify that you have passed a course and are now 'vertical' and you go out and kill yourself on an out of control rappel, the family of the deceased can come back to me and sue me for not doing my job correctly, and for 'certifying' you beyond your capabilities.
Much of the expense in other sports certifications is the expense for liability insurance for the teachers. This is not cheap. You also reach the limit of certification. You say the vertical people would be certified by the extreme vertical folk who would be certified by the master vertical teachers. Ok, who certifies the masters? At some point, the buck has to stop, and it is at that level that things get way too political.
You say that such certification wouldn't be mandatory, but then reverse yourself, and say that it would be 'required' --say to do El Capitan. That sounds mandatory to me. Also, in the case of a national park, you would need to get the government to accept the validity of the certification--which would require a level of government oversight of your training, policies, procedures and so forth. How would you handle the circumstance of some master climber, say from Romania, who can climb cliffs like Spiderman, and whose safety standards exceed those of your certification, but doesn't have a domestic certification? How about the person who is a self-taught and uncertified citizen of the US, who files a discrimination suit because they are dirt poor, and couldn't afford your certification? Or they live in Maine, and there is no certification in their area, and only have a two week vacation in Yosemite?
Governmental landowning agencies are unlikely to accept the word of some certifying agency not themselves. They have their own standards for public use of climbing and rappelling areas which apply to all people. One place I know which the BSA uses for climbing/rappelling and which is off-limits to cavers is not because the BSA has a national ropes course training--it's because the BSA carries liability insurance on its members, (which only applies when the activity is within the scope of the BSA training, to be sure, but the parks are only worried about the liability, and who gets sued, and who pays if an accident occurs.)
Finally: it is difficult to get scuba tanks filled without showing a dive card. If you go to a drop zone (once past the student stage) you have to show your skydive cards to get in the air. Any fool with a rope, a tie off, and enough chutzpah can climb or descend a rope. Where is the gateway in your system?
And hey, my name isn't even Rebel Rouser...
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 21, 2006 22:54:16 GMT -5
You bring up some good points. I havent thought of everything and dont know all of the answers. though i do think this is the time and place for this discussion. More people continue to get into the sport but without proper training. Because of movies and media , the stunt mantality spreads its tenticles into every sport. I have personally seen it in this one by people i was certain had little experience by observing them and their equipment. As far as the park service goes. They do not require any such certification at present and at present none exists. They take the position that if you want to kill yourself that is fine as long as you dont endanger anyone else. When i say it wouldnt be mandatory , that is what i mean. The NSS is a private organization (to my knowledge) and therefore cant demand that you get certified. I dont know the origins of PADI or why you have to be certified by Padi or maybe someone else to fill your tanks.(I am only aware of PADI) But what i meant about extreme vertical being mandatory for El Cap is this. If you are a team leader for a private trip then you have the say for who does or doesn't go on your trip. You can give whatever resrtictions you choose. You can say that only people with purple hair can go. It's your trip. You dont even have to have any experience to sponsor the trip just the money and the rope. It is a free country and this is an unresrticted sport like rock climbing. But you could say that a certain level of certification is required to do this trip. But you could only say this if there was some sort of certification. You could still let other people go on the trip if they were not certified but you knew they were qualified first hand or by someone you trusted. But because of the expense of a trip like this you have to include people you dont know (sometimes) to spread the cost so that everyone can afford to go. Unless you know someone with a 3000' rope in their closet or everyone going is rich. You can get sued if someone trips in your yard in this crazy world so i dont have the answer for that i think you are probably more informed than me on that question. My suggestion is that it would be like a merit badge in the boy scouts. You join the group and then you want to earn badges along the way as a sense of accomplishment. But it would be easy for those in the group to verify someones qualifications. As for Team vertical or master vertical they would have to be established first. There would need to be many of them all on the same page with input from all concerned and many are qualified. But then you would probably have to have the recommendation of three or more (team) to allow an applicant to go from extreme to team and they would have to have extreme experience. I opened the door so bring on the debate.
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 21, 2006 23:35:46 GMT -5
Rebel Rouser you are going to have to give me english lessons. When i say certification , I mean a merit badge or something that says you have achieved a certain level of experience. As i stated earlier it would not be mandatory or enforcable except as a tool for team leaders who want to know the qualifications of those they are taking on their trips. They can sponsor their own trip if they want to but if you are sponsoring the trip you want to know the qualifications of the people that are going. Especially the ones you have never met.. I dont care what you call it. but I'd rather have something than nothing. And it would be nice for everyone to be on the same page as to what are the basic safety expectations of all involved. Extremely early in my career i left the rope off the rope pad at mega well and i was the 1st climber out. No serious abrasion but the next climber let me know. Kind of hard to see the rope pad at mega well. but if there had been a better training system someone would have told me rather than to let me find out on my own. I guarantee those i have trained will NEVER make that mistake. I'll stake my life on it. I learned alot on my own and so did many of you and i think we should try to pass it on.
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Post by Azurerana on Dec 22, 2006 0:57:09 GMT -5
happykillmore,
You say this is the time and place for this discussion. This discussion has been going on for twenty years that I know of, and probably longer than that, in regards to both caving and ropework. So far, no one, not even the NSS, has come up with suitable standards which people can agree on, due to the difference in the environments in which either cavers or climbers find themselves. I personally don't think the NSS would be a good vehicle to 'certify' any competency in caving or ropework skills. I would rather this happen through a neutral third party, like NOLS, or Outward Bound, or any of a variety of wilderness education institutions. That, of course, limits the number of people who would be able to attend, as a typical NOLS class costs (by their own estimation) $100/day. Most cavers I know got into caving because it is cheap, and cannot afford such fees. I personally do not care for the term 'certification' . We've actually had some local experience with a group of well-to-do outdoorsy types offering one-day rope schools and one-day caving schools. The fee paid for the instruction actually went to support the insurance the group provided, and which the state (here) requires for the use of their property for ropes work. So far, no one has broached the topic of cave training, or cave insurance, because there are too many local cavers who provide too many free volunteer hours for the parks, and to require such cave training would step on the toes of their needed volunteers. This local non-profit did provide 'cave and rope' certification. It sounded great. A few of our more wealthy and curious (and much more experienced) cavers took the course. They were appalled at the content (or lack thereof)-- the bottom line, of course, was that someone with more dollars than sense could take the 8 hour course, and was 'certified' to do vertical and cave work, whereas people with 10, 20, and 30 years of successful experience, and who were indeed teaching other cavers, were then excluded from state lands they had previously enjoyed. One of the local grottos was founded by a community college caver-professor who taught a semester long course in speleology-- even people having taken a 3 hour 16 week state certified college course were no better off than the normal caver, when it came to access. The training was moot. Landowners wanted insurance before permitting access. It's $ which talks, not paperwork.
In terms of "my trip leader would want such certification before leading a trip up El Cap" that certification, however well intentioned, would not prove squat to me. I would want to know the people on my trip. Period. I've taken total strangers horizontal caving...and non-caving friends...and been an official volunteer leading the public on non-lighted cave tours (for years). In all cases, I either know the people I'm with, or I do an assessment of them based on their behavior outside the cave, or I don't trust them any further than I can see them. A piece of paper is just that. A piece of paper.
I disagree with your assessment, " As far as the park service goes. They do not require any such certification at present and at present none exists. They take the position that if you want to kill yourself that is fine as long as you dont endanger anyone else." I suggest you get some more experience at working with NPS rangers, and you will find this is decidedly not true.
As far as 'what basic safety expectations are involved', I submit these already exist, as outlined in On Rope, and Caving Basics. I passed my written driving test with a 96; it then took me 4 tries behind the wheel to actually demonstrate that I could do the physical actions to drive a car. Too often training or certification is just a matter of "Monkey see, Monkey do, Good Monkey!" (A typical first aid/CPR course is a good example. Learning both is a good thing. But you only have to demonstrate it once for the instructor in order to pass. And even then, you are not "certified"-- that little card means you've completed the course, and been exposed to the material, not that you've mastered it so you can do the action if you are in a panic, if the person bleeding is your child, or if you are woken in the middle of the night. )
I'm all for training courses (formal and informal) and practice, and learning, and teaching others (for in teaching you must explain what you think you know, and often it is in the explanation, that what it really means first comes clear. I wish the NSS would come up with some sort of hold harmless 3rd party liability insurance for caving accidents. But 'certification' is a really really big can of worms, and I think it creates more problems than it solves.
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 22, 2006 19:23:26 GMT -5
Azureana "I disagree with your assessment" (As far as the park service goes. They take the position that if you want to kill yourself that is fine as long as you dont endanger anyone else.) That is how it was quoted to me by one person I very much respect regarding a certain trip that was denied by the park service. This was some time ago. I am sure the boots on the ground wouldnt say that. I know that is not their official position. If you still disagree you will have to take it up with him. I was just quoting him. A couple of other things you took out of context or misread. Thats OK. Minor things. I welcome your criticism and more if you desire. I would love to hear any ideas you might have. Or perhaps we are already doing the very best that can be done. Anyway this is a forum and no one is saying much , so you can always count on me to speak my mind. And i welcome the heated debate or criticism. But i do know that people are being trained today who will be training someone else in a very short amount of time. Who will in turn train others in a short amount of time. Merry Christmas everybody.
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Post by Azurerana on Dec 22, 2006 21:39:47 GMT -5
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 22, 2006 22:55:11 GMT -5
Thats fair. I dont care if you decide to be critical. I really want to hear your ideas. These sites are fine but who will find them and what do they know about rappelling a 3000' wall. Maybe not many people could find the NSS either. I dont know. If they are rappelling a few hundred feet or so i'm sure they are getting the proper training now. The NSS is full of qualified people in every county. I'm not talking about much change from what we have now. I hope i can be understood given my limited ability to express myself. I would write a book but i am afraid it would only have value if you were freezing to death and had enough matches. We have the same system today as i am proposing. Think about it really hard and you will see what i am trying to say. We just operate from our own training expertise. We are not drawing from each others strengths , putting it into a manual. inspecting the gear and making sure people are on the same page as we are before they take the next step to a 3000' wall. Someone vouches for them i trust you ok bringem, lets go. I know it is not that simple. Maybe i am making too much out of nothing. I certainly hope no one misunderstands and thinks i want to be in charge of it. I dont have the organizational skills or desire. I think we are doing a great job of teaching people at the biginning levels of rappelling. As long as they stay there. It is the few that want to venture into extreme rappelling without the experience that the rest of us have that concerns me. I have seen many more than one. The park service trust rock climbers i think more than they do rappellers. We are new comers to their territory. Base jumpers have already been banned. Dont get me wrong i understand why. I am just thinking ahead. I do not want to turn this forum into brain surgery. Maybe i am all alone here and there is no reason for it. When there are 3 ropes hanging off of El Cap like it was Whitesides and 40 people you never met from all over the world. And it looks like the episode i just saw on Mt Everest , With people standing in line to get to the summit. Merry Christmas.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Dec 22, 2006 23:22:53 GMT -5
Anyway this is a forum and no one is saying much, so you can always count on me to speak my mind. And i welcome the heated debate or criticism. Merry Christmas everybody. Hi Happy! Welcome to the forum. Right now I'm just listening and paying attention to the views that are being expressed. Let me ponder this a bit longer and I may just participate in the conversation. Peace, Hope and Happiness to All Cavers this Holiday Season!
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Brian Roebuck
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Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Dec 22, 2006 23:31:42 GMT -5
I think the word "certification" implies that someone with expertise has assessed the trainee and can testify in court that they have the knowledge and ability to do a certain thing properly. If the NSS were to do such a thing they would probably be legally liable for folks that are "certified" and manage to get themselves hurt or killed. Families would sue, land owners would sue, etc until the NSS would be no more. The problem is that by certifying you open yourself up for litigation. It is the unfortunate result of US legal practices. I think that there should be "recommended" levels of training with pass / fail criteria so that cavers can judge for themselves if they feel qualified to do vertical work or not. I always try to assess my abilities that day to see if I should be doing what I plan to do on rope. If I am having a bad day I might not continue. So I think the path that is being followed now is working well based on that. But there are those people that choose to rappel without enough training or knowledge of the dangers involved. I have seen it first hand and it scares me. In that sense it is up to the group involved to attempt to insure everyone is up to the task at hand mentally, physically, and is trained appropriately. That is about the best we can do as cavers and the NSS can do as a society. Watch out for fellow cavers and do yourself the favor of attending training before trying out your shiny new vertical gear!
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NZcaver
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Post by NZcaver on Dec 23, 2006 6:46:24 GMT -5
I don't want to appear overly critical here, but what on earth does going to El Cap or rappelling a 3000 foot drop have to do with caving? I am simply asking what the benefits would be of having/requiring an NSS certification for this - last I checked the NSS is a caving organisation. How many 3000 foot in-cave drops are there? (And if there really are any, I would hope someone rigs rebelays!) That said, the intent behind your idea is a noble one in my opinion. Practically however, it's unlikely to come to fruition in the way you describe. The whole "certification" legal thing is one reason, plus there are inevitably other hassles too. Azureana covered a number of these in detail, but I'd like to add a couple of further thoughts. The NSS vertical section does provide basic vertical introduction and training, usually at Conventions each year. You should be able to get information from them on proficiencies and suggested content for running local grotto training. You may even find this info on the NSS VS website. By contrast, many European caving communities often run their own highly-structured vertical caving "schools". However, as you might imagine, the Frog is the ONLY climbing system used and the bobbin is the descender of choice. Rebelays are the norm, and "racks with spacers" are about as alien as caves with 3000 foot pitches. My point being, even well structured "good" training can have it's downside when students (or instructors) don't follow the program because they use a different method and insist on doing things their way. Sure the program can be changed, but it's impossible to include every technique and even harder to please everyone. As an example of a structured cave-related training body in the US, the National Cave Rescue Commission of the NSS provides 3 levels of week-long rescue training, as well as regional weekend orientations. On completing each "seminar" a student receives a "certificate of completion" (assuming they completed the training and passed the testing). Only the instructors are actually "certified", and they are all required to re-certify every 3 years. Certain senior instructors coordinate this process, and the curriculum and training techniques are constantly being revised and updated. Student include cavers, firefighters, park rangers and more - and of course you can't please them all every time. The vast majority, however, go away happy (and many come back again). All the instructors, by the way, are volunteers. Would a similar structure work in the NSS for purely vertical training? Possibly, but I can't see it happening on a large scale - and I certainly can't see it being a "certification" process. My 2 cents, anyway...
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 23, 2006 10:32:36 GMT -5
Perhaps i shouldnt have used the word certification. Though i did a good job of explaining that it wouldnt be an actual certification but an acknowledgement of achievement. And perhaps the NSS isnt the right group to do it. Perhaps no group exists today that has the national credability is well known enough to achieve such a goal without adding a huge work load to the organization. As i have invisioned this as being something done by its members as it is now but more supervision before they move to the next level. It isnt the first level that concerns me as there are many qualified people in the NSS doing a fantastic job at this level. Though there are still few accidents they are usually attributed to falling or wrecklessness and not a lack of training. I would say that drugs or beer has caused a few. As far as this being a caving forum this is the vertical section, which does more than cave. There really wasnt another place to go 20 years ago ,if you were into rappelling you joined the NSS and some hear have sponsored and attended such trips and tomorrows team will more than likely be made up of NSS members. I have seen a few other small rappelling groups though i dont think they have many members. Perhaps in todays climate where everyone has their lawyer on speed dial it would not be possible to get any group to try anything like a certification or acknowlegement or award. I know OSHA isnt the answer. They have the guano touch just like anything the government does turns to guano. If any such program did pass it probably wouldnt look anything like what i proposed anyway because their are many other qualified people that would be involved that have great ideas of their own and are probably much smarter than me. I would like to see something happen. Merry Christmas.
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Post by Azurerana on Dec 23, 2006 11:27:28 GMT -5
It's true I don't work for a government agency, but I've been up to my ears in government agency politics for my whole caving career of twenty years, including being married to government agency resources employee, being an official parks volunteer, running cave restoration in that capacity, holding an NPS research permit, and numerous other things.
If certification exists for a possibly dangerous activity, the government will require people to hold such certification before allowing them to partake of it on their lands. Such is already the case with permitted scuba diving around here...they want to see cert cards before allowing access to the underwater. If you hunt or fish, they want to see a hunting or fishing license. (Hunting entails passing a hunter safety course, which does not certify that you are safe, only that you took the course.) If you powerboat, you have to take a boating safety course, and carry the card, or you can be fined.
Basically, I'm trying to impress upon happykillmore that his idyllic scenario of 'let's certify climbers and rappellers, but then not 'require' the certification for access' is pretty much a pipedream when it comes to the risk management section of government agencies. Do we really want every human activity to require a certification? The training aspect may be fine indeed, but it is the regulatory aspect and the exclusionary aspect of that with which I don't agree.
While scuba courses have given cards since about 1959, it was only in the 1980s that everyone everywhere began requiring the cards for air or equipment rental with some tightening of the rules. This requirement locked a friend of mine (certified in 1960) out of scuba, even though he was one of the Missouri cave diving pioneers. He lost his wallet, and the Y had no record of his certification (that Y had burned down in 1964 taking all the records with it.) By that time, the costs for scuba courses had increased to several hundred dollars (insurance reasons), and he could not afford the recertification.
For a 'very' short time, the local state parks instituted a rule that you had to present a helmet, light, and other minimal equipment to park staff before obtaining permits for permit caves. Their own lawyers saw this as a big gaping liability hole--what if an employee 'certified' that a visitor had the proper equipment, and then injury or death were caused by improper use or failure of that equipment. If you go to get a permit now, they still look you up and down and chat a few minutes if they don't know you, and do 'weed' visitors who look or act like they haven't a clue--a woman showing up to go wild caving in a dress, hose and heels, for example-- but they don't want the responsibility.
Every day one is on rope or underground one should be practicing old skills, and looking to learn something new. Certification sometimes makes people rest on their patooties--I've got the card, so I can relax. To be safe and effective, relaxation is not an option, and relying on some else's assessment of your abilities in any situation is dangerous.
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 23, 2006 12:59:27 GMT -5
Azurerana "but it is the regulatory aspect and the exclusionary aspect of that with which I don't agree." If husbands and wives dont agree on everything then i'm sure we will not either. You obviously have more experience in the legal and management aspects that go on behind the scenes in decision making than i ever will. But we regulate and exclude under the current system. Each chapter has a vertical trip every month. In many cases someone will show up for a trip and the trip leader will assess your abilities and ask a few questions if no one there knows you and may exclude you based on your answers or experience or lack thereof. They would do the same thing under my proposal but if you had a merit badge or card saying that you had performed 1000' of COMBINED vertical climbing and rappelling experience that was witnessed by various qualified members. It might be an extra level of confirmation and it would be up to the trip leader to decide as it is that way now. Though i know their friends could lie or exagerate their level of experience. That doesnt mean they would automatically be excluded bacause they didnt have the merit badge. If you were going on a trip with friends and they wanted to bring someone you didnt know, it would be your right since it was your rope to deny them because you didnt want to take their word that they had done x or y and you didnt want the responsability. That doesnt mean either that you would just look at a badge and say wow your awesome. This is true whether you are doing 100' , 600' or 2650' . Though obviously as the height increases so does the requirement for experience. If someone showed up at Never Sink (which is always the case) and wants to use your rope so they can hurry on to the next drop because they are on a day trip from Indiana and they are making their rounds it would be a little more comforting to see a badge of achievement. Though i know it would not be foolproof and stop all accidents and i know everyone wouldnt participate. As safe as our sport is it is disheartening to hear that deaths still occur every year on large and small walls. I have denied people from using my rope who just climbed up to never sink or stevens gap because they were drunk or using aluminum bars. If you are a trip leader for El Cap and taking soeone you dont know. It is hard to examine their equipment if they are coming from the other side of the country. And not everybody that is extremely experienced is as safety conscious as they should be or neccesarily a good instructor. I know the Government is regulating more and more sports. They even had a senate meeting over baseball this year. They are trying to tell the PGA and Boyscouts (private organizations) what to do. I hope they dont look at our sport , as a whole , and see a Vacancy or welcome sign. OSHA would not be the answer. I'm sure we agree on that. I just hope we dont leave the door open for something like that to happen. Maybe theres nothing we can do in this day and age of legal pitfalls , other than what we are doing now. And perhaps it isnt the responsability of the NSS or any other organization. It's just a thought. I know when i first joined the NSS i thought there might be merit badges or something and would have worked hard to earn them. I worked hard and learned anyway. Much i learned from good men and caring proffessionals who took me under their wing and gave me a chance of achieving my goals. That was only because i hard learned so much on my own and proven myself thru much hard work and experience as many of you have done the same. Merry Christmas
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 26, 2006 16:43:09 GMT -5
Sharon you said in the other thread.
"Happykillmore was contemplating the benefits of having an NSS rappelling certification introduced, at least in part so he can be comfortable with the skills of his certified companions when he goes rappelling El Cap or another big wall. I was simply questioning the logic of this link." Thats close i would like to add a bit, I have a hard time writing my thoughts and usually leave more questions than answers. I shouldnt have said certification. Merit badge is mare accurate. Merit badges have manuals. While i think we do a fantastic job training at the lower levels. Moving from 300' to 3000' is a big leap. Pardon the pun. The rope is like cable. The rope weight is a factor . Greater chance for rock falls simply because theres more rock face and climbers knock off loose rocks (i've seen that its scary). Updrafts can blow the rappeller all over the wall. The psychological factor. And the spacer debate. The same experienced people would be doing the training but everyone trains others based on the training they received. Some people dont use spacers but i dont think it is logical to say that no one on the trip can use spacers. I'm not saying that anyone here would impose those restrictions. But if you havent used spacers then what are the safety limitations you would set. Everyone has their own idea you can just look at their racks. I'm sure others have concerns that i havent thought of. If there was a very small training manual whereby you could teach based on your experience and share from the knowledge base of others then i think they would be better prepaired and wouldnt be asking some of the questions that they are now. And at least they would be better prepaired to answer the questions of others i think making the sport safer in the long run. I'm not advocating that this would make me feal better. I'm talking about the overall saftey of the sport. Whether i'm there or not when i hear of something bad happening it is a blow not only to all of us but to our sport. Maybe this isnt the answer or even a good idea. I just dont understand how the same question keeps resurfacing after 14 years. I agree with what someone else posted. I cant remember who it was but he said he only uses enough spacer between the 1st and second bar, just enough to keep the bars from pinching the rope. about an inch. That is what i use but i added a bar to my rack because i now have no control over the first 2 bars. I know experienced people that use more but i think it should be strongly discouraged unless you have many years of experience. Even then i dont think it is necessary. But if you have many years of experience i'm not going to tell you what to do.
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Post by Sharon Faulkner on Dec 26, 2006 17:04:22 GMT -5
Sharon you said in the other thread.
"Happykillmore was contemplating the benefits of having an NSS rappelling certification introduced, at least in part so he can be comfortable with the skills of his certified companions when he goes rappelling El Cap or another big wall. I was simply questioning the logic of this link" Actually happykillmore, NZcaver made that comment. I've kept up with this thread, but haven't commented on the certification issue yet, and may not.
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NZcaver
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Post by NZcaver on Dec 26, 2006 17:50:24 GMT -5
Sharon you said in the other thread. "Happykillmore was contemplating the benefits of having an NSS rappelling certification introduced, at least in part so he can be comfortable with the skills of his certified companions when he goes rappelling El Cap or another big wall. I was simply questioning the logic of this link." Happy, those were actually my words - Sharon was quoting me. "Certification" being a nasty legal word and all (especially in the US), I can understand your withdrawing of that particular phrase in this discussion. Please don't think I'm out to shoot you down, but I'm not sure a "merit badge" is the right way to go either. It sounds a little too Boy Scout-ish to me. Drawing on the previous parallel I mentioned, the NCRC deliberately does not provide certification or merit badges to cave rescue students - lest a person imply he/she has some level of authority that they haven't. Even the T-shirts are seminar-specific, each with a unique design incorporating the location and year. A clearly-phrased "certificate of completion" is all students get, which can also be reduced to a wallet-card version for convenience. Regarding your comment about the move from 300' to 3000' - I agree completely. Although I haven't done a 3000 footer, I can begin to grasp the concept. I would, of course, seek to practice with the help of expert advice before attempting any such thing. Especially since my full-size rack seldom gets used these days, in preference to my Petzl Stop or Micro-rack. Though this would probably defeat the purpose of your bigwall adventures, the option of installing rebelays can greatly aid in the management of a drop - especially in-cave. I would respectfully suggest that any rappelling training conducted by caving organisations should concentrate more on placing and negotiating rebelays, redirects, etc, than on enormous height bigwall rappels. Regional variances can play a big part in any training content of course, but personally I like to broaden the options as much as possible - time permitting. As an example, I would certainly not expect every caver to use a Stop descender as their primary choice like I do. But I regularly offer mine for already-vertical cavers to try if they wish, along with the micro and full-size racks and (if appropriate) others like my SRTE Stop, Anthron Stop, Petzl I'D, Troll Allp, etc. Same with Petzl Ascensions vs Jumars etc, and even Frog vs Ropewalker vs Mitchell (though someone more adept with the latter two systems will usually teach those ones). Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. Your mileage may vary...
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 26, 2006 18:57:10 GMT -5
'merit badge" is the right way to go either. It sounds a little too Boy Scout-ish to me
i know that is why i first said certificastion that is non mandatory. but merit badge doesnt work good either. Perhaps certificate of achievement. As long as we do a better job of answering old questions i dont care what we do. However being recognized for achievment (such as merit badge , bad word i know but we do have alot of very young members) can be a motivational tool. Like i said we do a great job at that level . i'm just concerned about those who aspire to greater heights being properly trained. i've seen some that were not and yet they lived. and some that didnt.
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 26, 2006 23:37:25 GMT -5
I would like to switch the debate at this time if i could. I made a proposal that no one at this point agreed with. Thats ok there is wisdom in the multitude of counsel. Now would someone stick their neck out and let us hear your ideas. If not then i would like to hear why people are asking a 14 year old question when in my opinion the answer should be common knowledge by now. I am asking this question and then i promise i will let this subject rest. I dont want to beat a dead horse. Disagreeing with me is perfectly OK. But i have yet to hear someone come up with an alternative idea. I would love to hear someone try to explain to me how the spacer debate has been answered and it is no longer a safety concern. All of our members know the safety limitations. You do not always know everyone you are rappelling with on any trip whether it is 300' or 3000'.
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