Uncharted rare karst cavern in So. California

[saveacave]

Hi I'm new at this forum stuff. And I have only enjoyed " caving"
in hard rock mines around So. Calif. So please help me along.
Thanks.
When I was about 13 I heard a tale about caverns in the hills north of a dry lake I lived by. For three years the hunt was on! The day I found them I felt around in the dark saying "no way"
For five or six years I visited them and wonderd why someone choketd them off with boulders and rocks.......20 years later I took my 12 year old boy there. He was appaled at what a mining co. had done to the site. Theres trash oil and battery's in the wash above the caves. Now after a week of reserch it is easy to see thay wanted the dolomite in the area. The caves
are less then 2 hours from UCLA! please help reclaim them.
Any sugestions would be great...

[jonsdigs]

I would suggest getting involved with your local Grotto (chapter of the National Speleological Society.)

Try this link

[Brian Roebuck]

Yep jonsdigs is correct. There are many local cavers that might want to lend a hand. Mines are notorious for leaving unwanted things behind since many operate on the thinnest of profit margins. They are also much more dangerous than naturally occurring caves. Things like bad gasses, unstable rock formations, loose deposits, etc await the mine explorer. Not so in natural caves. Most cavers would never set foot in a mine that had been abandoned and without special equipment to monitor air quality etc.

For your sake do indeed find your local caving grotto of the NSS and learn more.

[saveacave]

Thanks for the grotto link guys. And please dont think I'm in unstable hard rock tunnels. I have out grown that years ago and seen them all for hunderds of miles. I worktd in that industory as a young man and have helptd with numorus serch and rescue operations...

I have sent lots of emails to any cave sites and the gov. I have fed them to the EPA and told the geologist at local schools. I have the blessings of the BLM office that blunderd and let the claim patten after 88. WE WILL GET ACCESS TO THIS rARE WONDER. The swine of a woman that owns the quarry YELLS at me about tresspassing. Itold her to arrest me and gave her my address for the cops..She went behind a dingy little desk and told me to get out of her office...I cant wait to get her in federal court. To add injury to insult her father that founded the quarry wrote 6 books on historic sites in the Mojave that sold over 35000 copys (HE NEVER SAYS ANTYHING IN THEM ABOUT VAST CAVERNS ON HIS CLAIM),and now the sites are trampled by the public..While being YELLED at I asktd her if she cared about all the local children she screwd out of a field trip? She said "thats not what I'm in bussiness for".......Shes a member of the Barstow school board...That self serving limestone grinding swine is going to deal with a federal court date sooner than later.

[Azurerana]

Well, if the BLM gave her the mining permit, and she is in the process of blasting some rare cavern on BLM land, you need to go back to the BLM, review the mining lease, find out the terms and conditions under which the lease was let (and for how long before review). In order to win in federal court, you need to do this legwork yourself, and have photos, a survey, and even a geological assessment of the caverns before declaring them 'rare'.

Since you already have an antagonistic relationship with the lessee, perhaps talking to the cavers near you would be useful-- encouraging some of them to perhaps get the data you would need to document the cave. Many cavers are good negotiators with land managers, and perhaps one or two could gain access and do a 'down and dirty' site assessment, including determining just how rare/valuable this cavern and its contents are.

The NSS has cavers who are also BLM employees and specialists in BLM karst. I would suggest you call the BLM Carlsbad, NM office, and ask to speak to the karst expert there (a well-known and well-respected NSS caver.) While he may or may not be able to act on your case, he likely will be able to point you in the direction to deal with the recalcitrant lessee.

But what can actually happen depends on the terms of the lease, and what is actually there. Getting the mine operator upset isn't going to get anything done on that score. It might be useful to find out exactly what is being mined there, for what purpose. You say first it is dolomite, and then it is limestone. Which is it?

What town is the mine located near? Is it an open pit, or underground carbonate quarry?

[saveacave]

Rare as in california marble karst. The BLM is working with me. The terms and conditions did not include the caves. Thay got there patten after 88 by over two years. The BLM employee I took to the site around 1982 is still in the same office and is happy to say he was told to shut up about them. The people that let the deal go down are no longer pulling his strigs. Are you talking about Jim Goodbar in NM office? I have homework to do. But I will get there....Thanks so much and please give me more............

what threre mining there is white rock. call it what you will but it is used for landscaping and roofing. I stared this conversation saying I'm way out of my field with this issue. I also used the term (rare). well the location is between Adelanto & Barstow Ca.
There are no other caverns in the area that I can find for hunderds of miles.I think thats rare. Also, this one is on a county road less then 3 miles from a highway.

And the owner of the mines not talking to anyone. I came on soft asking for permission to look at the caverns. She wont reason. She knows it's wrong and wont talk about a limited access agreement.. Thanks again,

[madratdan]

Keep after them. He who yells loudest and all. I wish you luck on saving these caves. Most definantly get the local cavers involved. That can only help the cause.

[saveacave]

Thanks madratdan;
There are sooo many was to go and so many things to do. And it seems like almost every one that cares is on the other side of the rockys. When I get some more facts I'm going to the local paper and jr collage for reserch. I dont think anythings going to come up on paper about the site, but I'm betting someone that worktd for the mine years ago willcome forward with some history. After that I'm posting a web page called saveacave.org.. The more I look into the more I see that these were coverd up years ago to keep working the claim. The main room you can get into has been filled with a pile of rocks at least 50 feet high. Yesterday we got past more of them but the passage only went about 20 feet and then up. I would say the top of the cavern we can get in is close to 200 feet across and at least 60 feet high (with out the rocks) I also found two more openings in the hill side yesterday.
Thanks again and I will have pics. to post soon..............