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Post by galt on Nov 18, 2007 22:27:26 GMT -5
I found your site searching for information about White River Cave in Polk County, Georgia. As some of you may know, the property is currently for sale. I am in the process of attempting to purchase the property. The cave is badly damaged from graffiti, trash, etc (high school is 1 mile away from entrance)., but it is a habitat for the gray bat (one of only 4 caves in Georgia, from what I can tell, where they live). The gray bat is also an endangered species. I am looking for input on how to protect the cave and would appreciate suggestions.
I haven't been spelunking in almost 15 years, but took my 4 kids and wife this morning for a quick tour. I live about 20 minutes from cave, and believe this is an opportunity to restore the cave and protect its wild life. But I would need help if I purchase. Thank you.
- Mason
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Post by madratdan on Nov 19, 2007 9:35:26 GMT -5
Welcome to the discussion board Mason. Bat gates can get expensive, but there are lots of designs to go off of. How big is the entrance? Is there a way to watch the entrance or possibly fence it off and put a security camera up? It's going to take vigilance and patience to turn the crowd away and get them to party elseware. Maybe you could approach the school and start a club to help clean the cave up and protect the bats through educating the kids. Education is always a step in the right direction. You can always approach the local grotto (cave club) for help and suggestions on gates or ideas to protect the bat population. Thats a great place to get some volunteer help. Maybe they can help you manage the cave and possibly help write for grants to offset the cost of gating. Good luck and hope this helps some Dan
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Nov 19, 2007 9:50:25 GMT -5
Hi Mason, I am familiar with the story concerning this particular trashed cave. It is a notorious party cave. The SKTF had considered a clean up at the cave a couple of years ago. A local caver, Eric Crisp is very familiar with the condition of this cave and may be able to assist you. After you purchase the cave you may want to contact the SKTF about a clean up. sktfi.org Also the Southeastern Cave Conservancy might be of help -- SCCi helps landowners protect and manage their caves. scci.org/Hope this helps, Lynn
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Post by galt on Nov 19, 2007 11:15:00 GMT -5
Thank you for your responses. I really like the idea of starting a club at the high school to create a sense of ownership. I do intend to make an offer on the property today and will let you know what happens.
I read about Wolf Cave (or something like that) in Tennessee where several agencies and non-profits joined together to raise funds/volunteer to install a bat-friendly gate at the entrance. I really don't want to close the cave with a gate (I would, of course, still allow pre-approved folks to use the cave) and would only do so as a last resort. At a minimum, though, I think installing a fence with warning signs would be appropriate.
Do any of you know how much autonomy you lose by leasing it to the Southeastern Cave Conservancy? I don't want to acquire the property only to donate it. But I would be interested in leasing the cave, provided the lease is not a long-term commitment. Management, not money, is the issue. I also intend to place the property in a land covenant with this County, which would restrict the land's use.
Thanks again.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Nov 19, 2007 13:37:36 GMT -5
I agree that only good can come from educating the students at the local school. Oftentimes educating locals about the cave as well as the use of signs is all that is needed to protect a cave. I have a cave law sign that I would be happy to send to you after you purchase the property.
The folks at SCCi are great. You could phone Bill Putnam ( his number is listed on the web site) to ask questions or discuss lease options, management concerns, etc and get a better feel of what they about.
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Post by galt on Nov 20, 2007 10:57:32 GMT -5
Lynn and Dan:
I've reached an agreement to purchase the property today. It's scheduled to close on November 30th. I would like speak with either of you (or whoever else reading this threat that can help with restoring and protecting this cave) when you get a chance. My office number is 770-443-6060. I can give you my cell number if you call.
Thanks again.
Mason Rountree
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Post by scoon1 on Nov 20, 2007 11:02:53 GMT -5
I've been to the cave several times and ponder what people are thinking about trashing for the sake of trashing a cave. I've taken truckloads out and I'm volunteering to take more. PM me and I'll give you all of my contact info.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Nov 20, 2007 12:14:05 GMT -5
Congratulations Mason! Apparently I just missed you when I phoned but I left my phone number.
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Post by madratdan on Nov 21, 2007 9:52:53 GMT -5
Wow....This is great news Mason. I'm in Colorado so i doubt i can provide much physical help, but I can give you a bunch of links to several different liability waivers and management ideas we use around here. Here is a link to the project I'm most involved in. www.wcp.coloradocaves.org/docs/index.htmlIt contains several doctuments that might interest you. I try calling later today.
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Post by galt on Nov 21, 2007 19:25:13 GMT -5
Thank you all, again. I explored the cave today for a couple of hours with my daughter and four of her teenager friends. Much to my relief, the bat population is still active. We saw at least 200-300.
Since I took my family there on Sunday for a quick visit, someone has added graffiti. I guess I'll have to learn to live with it for awhile. I hope to coordinate a clean up in the near future. I'll provide food and drink, etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated, whether it's showing up or providing suggestions.
I look forward to meeting/communicating with you.
- Mason
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Post by galt on Dec 1, 2007 20:49:35 GMT -5
I'm pleased to announce that I did purchase White River Cave located in Rockmart, Georgia yesterday. If anyone is ever interested in exploring the cave sometime, please let me know. It's an easy cave with the map showing it's around 1400 linear feet from front to back. I understand there is a waterfall, but there is very little water flowing right now because of the dry conditions in the South. I live about 20 minutes from the cave and would enjoy meeting other cavers if you are planning a trip or would like to visit. My office number is 770-443-6060.
I am still struggling on my decision as to whether to place a gate at the entrance. Any input is welcome.
- Mason Rountree
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Brian Roebuck
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Dec 2, 2007 9:42:38 GMT -5
Congratulations on purchasing the cave. I hope that you enjoy it and will find a balance between protection of the cave and access for responsible cavers. You are not alone in trying to strike that balance as many cave owners find this issue to be a tough problem at times. You can try passive protection measures such as signs (let people know you own it and do not want destructive behavior there), let the locals know you own it and allow visitation but no vandalism, organize a learning experience for school children to show them the effects of vandalism in caves - frail cave life - etc, get the police to frequent the cave to deter vandals, make it easy for responsible visitors to contact you for permission to visit the cave, etc. Unfortunately caves that have been "historically visited" by party-ers and vandals are tough to protect. Word of the place often gets passed from generation to generation of buffoons and the cycle of cave abuse continues. Cavers call these "sacrificial caves" due to the enormous damage that can occur within over time. I hope that you will be able to reverse such a trend in your cave if that has been happening.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Dec 2, 2007 10:15:45 GMT -5
Congratulations Mason! I am still getting caught up from the holiday but I should have the packet I promised you in the mail -sometime this week. Have you placed any signs on the property yet? Here is a link to a study that may add some information to your decision on if you should install a cave gate or not. Cave Gate Airflow Disturbance—A Qualitative Study
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Post by galt on Dec 2, 2007 21:45:37 GMT -5
I was there today and had a family clean up for an hour or so. I have not yet had a chance to post any signs on the property but hope to do so soon. Since last weekend, some person or group has removed a decent amount of trash. It is truly appreciated, as I expect the clean up will take months. As a test, we also removed a small portion of graffiti from the cave with a nylon brush and water. It worked well, but the job is overwhelming because of the quantity of graffiti.
I'm a little hesitant to do much trash removal right now as the bats hibernate. Can anyone suggest when the cave should not be cleaned/explored, etc.?
Thank you, Lynn, for the package. If you have any mailing costs, let me know and I will be happy to reimburse you or others.
- Mason
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Brian Roebuck
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Dec 3, 2007 6:12:52 GMT -5
Usually around mid March in the southern US areas the bats come out of hibernation and have enough food to do fine. I suspect you can do whatever you need to do by that time. If the spray paint came off with brushes and water it is possible a veneer of mud coats the walls that could be removed to get rid of much of the paint. However the loose paint can subsequently become a new hazard for cave life. Cave restoration and clean-up can be difficult.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Dec 3, 2007 9:23:24 GMT -5
Yes, removing the graffiti will take many trips, lots of time, patience and elbow grease. I am happy you tried a less invasive method to remove the graffiti. It is better for the health of the cave and ecosystem. I have been checking "no trespass" sign prices for another landowner. Tractor Supply has the best price so far at 99 cents per sign. Hey Mason have you considered adding you contact information to the DCG TAG Closed Caves and Cave Access List? As word spreads to cavers that you have purchased the cave I imagine more cavers will be glad to help pick up trash after cave trips. Normally, Sept 15th - April 15th is the the time that bat caves are used for hibernation. But those dates can vary somewhat depending on the temperatures outside. As I understand it is best for endangered bats to not visit the cave during hibernation time. No need to reimburse me for mailing costs I am just glad I can help you out. Enjoy your cave & keep up the good works!
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Post by galt on Dec 4, 2007 16:17:19 GMT -5
Lynn:
I read your and your husband's article on gates. It was very informative and well-written.
I'll keep in touch.
- Mason
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Post by graveleye on Dec 5, 2007 15:25:52 GMT -5
I am quite excited about the future for WR Cave!! I got the floor at the DCG meeting last night and already got a few volunteers to help, and maybe even some other good things in the works. I'm really looking forward to working on this project!! This is something I've wanted to do for several years.
And then, we need to work on Deatons Cave too! work work work, a cavers work is never done!!
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Dec 5, 2007 16:35:26 GMT -5
Lynn: I read your and your husband's article on gates. It was very informative and well-written. I'll keep in touch. - Mason Thanks Mason. We really need to conduct another study but first we would have to see if we can get another facility to donate the place to conduct the study. Please do keep in touch. When the cave clean ups get planned I would like to try to attend and help you out. I am quite excited about the future for WR Cave!! I got the floor at the DCG meeting last night and already got a few volunteers to help, and maybe even some other good things in the works. I'm really looking forward to working on this project!! This is something I've wanted to do for several years. And then, we need to work on Deatons Cave too! work work work, a cavers work is never done!! I agree Kevin and the cave now has a good future thanks to the new caveowner! You rock Kevin! Hats off to you for speaking at the DCG meeting! I take it you have already talked with Mason and made some plans?
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Post by graveleye on Dec 5, 2007 16:58:24 GMT -5
Lynn, I've had an interest in the cave for a while, especially when I saw the property was for sale. Shannon and I kicked around the idea of buying it too, but decided we needed to keep the focus on the property we have now. The other day when I saw on the cave.org forum that Mason had bought the property, I was ecstatic and contacted him right away. I've always felt as though that cave has more to offer than a hole in the rock for partiers to destroy. There is a seasonal stream that disappears beneath the cave and obviously becomes part of the aquifer. Then there are the bats, and lots of them. There are some historical signatures as well. Despite the fact that it's been vandalized, the cave very active, and I have no doubt that if protected will be quite a sight one day!!
I hope this works.. many people have written it off as a sacrificial cave, and I just can't handle that concept. It's a cool cave, and I just listed a few darn good reasons for saving it. I'm looking forward to getting to work.
PS, and don't NOBODY groan: it's going to need a strong bat friendly and caver friendly gate, otherwise the vandalism will never be stopped. I need some contacts in that field to see if we can get the ball rolling so if anyone wants to drop a name, please let me know.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Dec 5, 2007 20:08:48 GMT -5
Lynn, I've had an interest in the cave for a while, especially when I saw the property was for sale. Shannon and I kicked around the idea of buying it too, but decided we needed to keep the focus on the property we have now. The other day when I saw on the cave.org forum that Mason had bought the property, I was ecstatic and contacted him right away. I've always felt as though that cave has more to offer than a hole in the rock for partiers to destroy. There is a seasonal stream that disappears beneath the cave and obviously becomes part of the aquifer. Then there are the bats, and lots of them. There are some historical signatures as well. Despite the fact that it's been vandalized, the cave very active, and I have no doubt that if protected will be quite a sight one day!!
I hope this works.. many people have written it off as a sacrificial cave, and I just can't handle that concept. It's a cool cave, and I just listed a few darn good reasons for saving it. I'm looking forward to getting to work.
PS, and don't NOBODY groan: it's going to need a strong bat friendly and caver friendly gate, otherwise the vandalism will never be stopped. I need some contacts in that field to see if we can get the ball rolling so if anyone wants to drop a name, please let me know. Yes I am also aware of the fragile resources and the bats in the cave. But has Mason made the decision to put a cave gate on his cave? Me, I try to abide by the "protect softly" motto when it comes to caves ... do no harm and only gate a cave after the other methods of protecting a cave have been tried and failed.
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Brian Roebuck
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Dec 5, 2007 20:40:29 GMT -5
Cave gates are but one solution to the problem of vandals etc. Gates also create new problems. Air flow, bat tolerance, creating a platform for predators, maintenance issues, lock and key control, cost, design, and a host of other issues arise when contemplating a gate. Sure you could go in there with a truckload of steel, a good welder, and slap up a gate. Without proper design and knowledge you can easily do more harm than good. You have to ask the right questions to find the best answers. People with the most experience and best contacts in the scientific community will usually give the best results.
Peoples behaviors can be modified. Traditional sacrificial caves can become less abused over time with the steady application of education and enforcement of trespass and vandal laws. Eventually the local people lose interest in destroying the cave and move on to other things. There will be setbacks but it can be done.
A gate is a solution to control "honest people" much like the lock on your car door. Criminals don't follow rules. Break the car window and you're in. Jack, cut or saw the gate and you're in. Repairs can get expensive if the locals see defeating a gate as an ego contest or technical challenge. There are caves that unfortunately need a gate. Most do not. Much thought should go into gating any cave. The best interests of the owner and the cave should be considered.
Food for thought.
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