Team Thor: Thor Expedition 2006

[Dee]

I would also enjoy viewing photographs.

[Peaker]

i am new at post but have been following this thread. silent only because don't like to post, just read them. i located some fotos on a myspace site under a cavers wife and there are some surreal pictures of the thor trip for all to see.

[madratdan]

Welcome to the forum Peaker

I've tried to find the photos you speak of, but haven't had much luck. Could you provide a link? It's really simple. You go to the pictures on the web. Once you have them on the screen, go up to the address box at the top of the screen and copy the web address by right clicking on it. Then come to the discussion board here and paste it into a post.

[Peaker]

profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofilefriendID=85269193

i think this should be it - i just discovered that the site also has muzic. pretty nice site

[Rebel Rouser]

Is there any way to see the pictures without registering? Kent

[Off Rope]

Kent,

You wrote, "It is in the nature of expeditions for the public (especially the ones participating in same sport) to want to know details."

Blaming one's faults on one's nature does not change the nature of one's faults.

"Also you were attempting a record and there was a death involved."

You're telling me? I was there.

"People might want to know the conditions you encountered just as y'all likely inquired of Thor '82."

All they have to do is ask or wait for trip reports to emerge (eventually).

"Supposedly our record has been broken and I would like to know more about the front side."

It's my understanding that your record was broken in 1993 by four British Royal Marines. We broke their record, not yours. Again, if you want to know something about the front side, e-mail me. You'll make 'the cut'.

"Lastly, and certainly the most difficult to assess, understanding of what happened to Mr. Robinson. we need to glean info from the tragedies so as to prevent them in the future."

I couldn't agree more and welcome any input you may have. I spoke to the team, except one, regarding what happened and all they could ascertain was that he lost control approximately half-way down a 4,000+ ft. rappel. The rest is ALL SPECULATION. He could have had a physical condition that caused his death or he could have suffered from a rock fall, or he freaked out, or he could have just been having too much fun and did not realize how fast he was going. In any event, we have no idea what caused such a tragedy and probably never will. I can tell you IT WAS NOT THE ROPE since I rappelled before Philip and Timmy rappelled after Philip in order to lend assistance, since it's my understanding that once Philip made contact with the earth, the team tried to contact him via radio and when they got no response, they knew something was wrong and Timmy volunteered immediately to go to Philip. For all they knew at the time, since the distance was so great, the rope could have been cut. That's the kind of person Timmy is. Timmy told me he got on rope and rappelled to within approximately 2-3 feet of Philips's body and was able to get off rope without touching him.

"Putting up a website and obtaining sponsors also puts you in the spotlight."

You're point being? The only explanations I feel we owe are indeed, to our sponsors (and to the appropriate authorities.)

"I do understand recuperation time and I guess we ought to be thankful for what we got."

Again, I couldn't agree more. You should be thankful. I should be thankful. We should ALL BE THANKFUL. Thankful we are alive.

"I would guess that the intentions of most posters here would be interest in your expedition."

Others had, or have, other intentions that you may not be aware of.

"Have there been people that sought others out over posts made about Thor? "

It's my understanding that the answer is 'yes'.

"So the story is going to trickle out via email IF we make the cut.......like maybe don't share.... "

What rule or law says I have to tell you or anyone else not associated with the expedition, anything about it?

"I understand getting back to the real world takes time but the questions will never go and since y'all are claiming the record then I want to know more about the rappel. I mean it is our record your breaking! "

Again, I believe your record was broken in 1993.

"So the Canadian authorities are investigating a rappelling accident? Reckon they'll figure it out? Let me tell ya......if the cavers that were there, augmented by the vertical experience hither and yon can't figure it out then I'm betting the RCMP will boge the seq, take the whip,crater and do the fish dance! (I've always wanted to write that. ) Robinson was supposedly an "experienced climber". That says something right there. How many "experienced cavers" are going to go out to the big stone and start working a 5.10 A5 aid route knowing little of big wall technique. What level of expertise ya guess the front of Thor would rate?"

No comment since I would not know an A5 from a hole in the ground.

"More than once I've had to turn down climbers that just topped out the Salathe Wall or the Nose and wanted to use our rope as a quick way to the Mtn. Room bar. They had no idea what they were asking and we politely explained that their figure 8 would not work! The Salathe goes free at 5.13b so they did not lack climbing experience. I say all this not trying to judge but to understand and prevent. Sometimes that requires asking tough questions."

Philip was given the proper equipment and the proper instructions on its use. There was no reason to suspect he'd have trouble. He knew the risk and he accepted that risk. We, as cavers, do that every time we go caving.

[madratdan]

Thanks for your informative post, off rope. You filled in several blanks in your reply back to Kent. I can't help but agree that we take a great risk every time we venture underground or persue the great outdoors by attenpting something like this. It's them close calls that make for a good campfire story.

My best wishes and prayers go out to the family and friends involved in the accident.

[Rebel Rouser]

offrope said:

"In any event, we have no idea what caused such a tragedy and probably never will."

You have no idea but maybe you could narrow it down. I wouldn't write it off just yet. I'd say you could rule out the "having too much fun" scenario also.


"You're point being? The only explanations I feel we owe are indeed, to our sponsors (and to the appropriate authorities.)"

You are advertising. Anytime you advertise you are in the public eye as are your sponsors.

"Again, I couldn't agree more. You should be thankful. I should be thankful. We should ALL BE THANKFUL. Thankful we are alive."

I was talking about receiving info. You know something that I don't?


"Others had, or have, other intentions that you may not be aware of."

Is that the reason for the "we all ought too be thankful we are alive"?



"What rule or law says I have to tell you or anyone else not associated with the expedition, anything about it?"

In the scientific community its called 'peer review' and from what I understand is pretty much necessary for validating ones work. Look at it this way, most , if not all, the techniques involved in doing the rappel were brought about by cavers developing SRT. You think the TAG community is not interested? I personally would like to know more but then again maybe not? From everything I can gather y'all did one of the worlds shortest highlines considering height vs distance. We had a mile of rope in '82 and looked at the slope you went down. We neglected to run rope down slope......Eyecave......you remember why? My vote is for "contrived". "Freefall" or "all free" is terminology we used to use and pulling the rope out from the base was not really something we did to extend drops.
We may "never know" what went wrong but its pretty much guaranteed if we ask no questions such as rack configuration (spacers perhaps?)


"Again, I believe your record was broken in 1993."

They broke our record, you broke our record.
The statement about the RCMP simply meant that the cavers at the scene and the caver SRT knowledge available is much more apt to understand what went on during the rappel than the RCMP.

"Philip was given the proper equipment and the proper instructions on its use. "

Had he ever used a rack before?

"There was no reason to suspect he'd have trouble."

Yep, It was only a world record attempt.

" He knew the risk and he accepted that risk."

Kinda what I was getting at in the "wanting to use our rope" account. As advanced as they were they didn't have a clue, after all it is a totally different discipline.

" We, as cavers, do that every time we go caving."

Maybe, maybe not.
Some questions.......
Was rope tied off(tensioned) during Robinson's descent?
Did he use a rack with spacers?
What was the configuration?
Had he ever used a rack?
Of course knowing the nature of his injuries would help.I imagine the RCMP would be able to help on that end.
IMHO we that participate in this sport owe it to future SRT enthusiasts to understand the tragedies as well as the triumphs. If this means asking what some deem as uncomfortable questions then so be it. Ever inquiring.......kent

[tncaveres]

Man those pics are awesome!!
At the very end of the slide show is a pic of the park ranger right before he went over the lip.

[L Roebuck]

Thanks Peaker for posting! I enjoyed watching the slide show! ;D

[eyecave]

kent.....the reason we (thor82) did not run down the slope was because i secretly intended to return 22 years later and do that and piss you off!!.......

if philip robinson showed up and asked to get on rope......he should not have been allowed on the rope without proper training period........no question about that.......thats what kent is saying and i agree......pose a situation on any caving forum where the scenario is an experienced boulderer shows up at the lip of fantastic and asks to borrow your rack to descend the pit.......do you (a) put him on rope with verbal instructions (b) refuse to allow him to descend until you go back to the warm-up pit and show him how to use a rack (c) refuse him and not offer to train him (d) show him how to use the rack at the lip and then allow him access to the rope.............what would the survey show?.......

at thor....the situation was diff......the mood was diff.....if he lost control about half way down....or if it was noted that he was going too fast when he got about half way down....then my bet is he couldn't add a bar........if he had no burns on his hands and thighs and he didn't experience a loss of conciousness due to some random event (which, of course, can not be denied as a remote possibility)..... then he cratered because he didn't add a bar when he should have.....dirk.....as far as him freaking out...he was considered the parks best boulderer so he probably didn't do that until he realized that that was all that was left to do!!...............

........now.......the not being able to add the bar, or not adding the bar when he should've scenario.....could that have happened to an experienced boulderer who had no experience with rappeling with a rack in the situation of being on a 4000 foot rap and who arrived without grooves in his hands and thighs?.....duh................remember an earlier post i made where i said that if the rope was too heavy to lift and maneuver and that then the only way to add bars was to learn to shift your body from frount of the rope to back and learn to add a bar as you are descending cause you can't lift the rope?....... this situation where a bar has to be added on an unmanageably heavy rope...never normally occurs except on all long drops!......"people who rap slow always arrive alive"..gm77......

i was told and have heard that a visible pall of smoke arose from the last half of the rope and that timmy rapped anyway...(he was the guy lowered to put the rope in place first, he had already been lowered down the drop, backed down to the lower anchor...... and rapped, and climbed, and fallen and slipped, down the drop as he did thaqt..............then he had had to select and work to secure the lower end of the rope so everyone else could rap........then, later, he had climbed back up, defeating that hanging upside down climbing at a 45 to 89 degree angle...... so he probably wanted that rap pretty damn badly....i identify)..

if there was a pall of smoke and a lot of glazing.......if so......that ranger guy was pushing up very hot bars.......were burns present on the anterior inferior surface of the thumb and the anterior surface of the first finger of his left hand glove?...i know you don't know that dirk.....the report, will maybe....show that..............if so, then he jammed the bars as far as he could jam them and he couldn't add a bar as he fell towards the rock...and the metal got hotter............this occurred because the rope was unmanageable due to weight.....and his not knowing how to deal with that.................

given the circumstances involved, the backside of thor.....the artic......powerful place....... and given the descriptions of the type of personality this robinson guy had my bet is a decision was made by more than one person to let this impressive personable likeable capable powerful ranger park person get in a situation that would lead to a fatal mistake....something that..... should not have been permitted without some level of training, excluding the most extraordinary of situations or persons of course..............

......... dirtman....if i had been there he would not have gotten on rope without first rapping that 150 foot free drop cliff off the backside that we went up and down........at least once........ and been shown a few things, and had to demonstrate them back......did ya'll do that?.....you were asleep in your tent and probably don't even know the answer to that, but you might have the answer to that..........

on another matter.............addressed to the caving public.......there are also four ways philip robinson could have achieved the rap safely at no, or low, or, for someone else..INCREASED risk!...........anyone wanna guess what they are?........go on make my day...read my posts over and over until you can finally make sense of them......... and then try to answer......

.

[eyecave]

one more point.......this 93 marine thing breaking our record thing......................go to the orig rough draft (heavily edited) of the chapter on long wall raps in On Rope One first edition......its implied that if the drop isn't climbed it don't count!..the marines didn't climb the drop into the mine shaft.....

.....granted that is arbitrary, but.....standards have to be established....the very heavily edited second edition of that same chapter...well, it may also include that statement; but, considering the changes bruce put in it,( the second edition of on rope...chapter on long wall rappels)..... i don't know if it is there or not........if you want the original stuff i sent him, email me and i will send it to a snail mail address......DO NOT SEND MONEY and do not sell what i send you for money....personal use only ass............... ..

[eyecave]

i understand the site posted on thor rap includes the last pix as that of the ranger going over.....can someone post that so it can be enlarged and viewed.............can't find it....cyberfumbler....over.....help........

[Rebel Rouser]

I think I've found a reliable way to tell a decent rap artist..........if he's a cybergeezer that can't find, or see the slide show!! :'(kent

[L Roebuck]

rebelrouser said:

I think I've found a reliable way to tell a decent rap artist..........if he's a cybergeezer that can't find, or see the slide show!! :'(kent

Hey Kent I just clicked on the myspace.com link that Peaker posted to view the slide show but I did have to wait a few minutes for it to load.

[eyecave]

cybergeezer indeed!!!.......i have already viewed the slide show an, after being alerted to that last slide......i searched and could not find the link again sir!!....the first time i went there i, like kent...became confused....and thought i had to join....but unlike kent i went back to the site and somehow saw a slide show that showed a lot of different people doing stuff.......i don't remember how i got to that show....thats the source of my cybergeekconfusion.......i swear i think it just started......kinda later......weird.....

i just viewed the above site link , which i think was the same one where i saw the other slide show...and saw 12 slides of the same guy.......getting on rope for his best rappel....maybe ever.....and one of him completing the climb..........and none of the orig..........was he the ranger?......i think not!!.......currently i came claim the title temporarilybewildered.....has anyone found or seen a slide show, about thor that shows a lot more varied slides, two at a time, one on top of the other?.....if so, link needed pleeze....

[Tim White]

The series of slides you are looking for are on the same MySpace web page. On my 19" monitor, they are to the right side of the page. You may have to move you page over to see them. On a slow connection, it may take them a long time to load.

[hohum]

Hey guys, I copied the images from MySpace to over to my server. Here's the link: XXXXXXXXXXXX . They should be easy to get at. I don't know who took the images or I've give them credit here. I'm sure there are more images around, if anyone has seen any please post a link.

Link Removed By Moderator

[madratdan]

Welcome to the forum, hohum. I had to cut and paste your link to my address box to get it to work, but I like it better than the myspace link. I tried to modify it to make it a live link in your post, but didn't have much luck. If I have time later, I'll try again.

[Off Rope]

I believe those are copyrighted images. Did you get permission hohum, to repost on your server?

[Cavers Wife]

hohum said:

Hey guys, I copied the images from MySpace to over to my server. Here's the link: XXXXXXXX . They should be easy to get at. I don't know who took the images or I've give them credit here. I'm sure there are more images around, if anyone has seen any please post a link.

Link Removed By Moderator

You have made me extremely upset.

This is considered copyright infringement since you did not have any permission from myself to post said pictures on your web server. I would suggest that you remove this link immediately or I will proceed legally and accordingly against you.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

[L Roebuck]

Cavers Wife are you the photographer who took the photo's at Mt Thor?