L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Mar 14, 2006 8:37:00 GMT -5
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Kelly
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Post by Kelly on Mar 14, 2006 15:53:46 GMT -5
I can't believe what these guys did to Tiny! They kicked him off the team when he had already quit his job to go.
My husband, Mike, recently went caving with the guy who kicked him off (who will remain nameless). The guy took Mike to a nice TAG pit and short rigged it. Mike went down first, changed over, and climbed out. Then the Thor guy went down, knowing that the pit was short rigged, and realized at the bottom that he didn't have his upper ascender. Mike had to call out a rescue!
Tiny, was kind enough to take Mike and another friend to Golondrinas in Mexico a couple of years ago. At the time, Tiny was pressured by his other friends to ditch his Golondrinas trip (and his other friends), but he said "I promised and I'm goning to do it", and went to 'drinas despite popular opinion! Tiny, you've got way more class than the treatment you got. It may be a hard thing to take, but you are probably better off! The last trip was dampened by too much attitude, and it looks like this will be no different.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Mar 14, 2006 19:11:44 GMT -5
The guy took Mike to a nice TAG pit and short rigged it. Mike went down first, changed over, and climbed out. Then the Thor guy went down, knowing that the pit was short rigged, and realized at the bottom that he didn't have his upper ascender. Mike had to call out a rescue! Well then, it should be really be interesting to read the web site and see how the next expedition goes.
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Post by Sharon Faulkner on Mar 15, 2006 19:15:49 GMT -5
Here is some background information on prior Mount Thor Expeditions.
In 1982 Dan Twilley and Steve Holmes, both experienced cavers, led an expedition to Baffin Island, where they and 15 others set a rappelling world-record by descending, and then climbing back up, a single rope 3,280-feet from the overhung face of Mount Thor. Jamey Englett, a caver and big-wall aficionado, approached Twilley with the idea of organizing a return to Mount Thor. Twilley and Englett speculated that it would be possible to rappel farther than the 1982 expedition did. A team rigging at a slightly different spot on the summit, dropping the rope farther down the scree slope at Thor's base, might achieve a rappel of as long as 4,000-feet. They agreed to spend July 2004 climbing, rappelling, and derigging Mount Thor, using a small team that would be the antithesis of the 1982 expedition.
On July 1, 2004 Twilley and Englett, plus Chuck Constable, Ben Holley, Ben Kim, Dirk Siron, and Kenneth Waite arrived in Pangnirtung, the gateway to Canada's Auyuittuq National Park. The plan, developed in consultation with park authorities, was for each member of the team to shuttle his gear 21-miles up Akshayuk Pass to the base of the mountain. A 5,000-foot rope weighs more than 300 pounds, so it was carried strung among six team members, as the seventh hauled the deflated raft. In addition to the terrain of loose gravel and icy freshets, a steady rain slowed progress, adding two or three extra days to the hike. Halfway up the left flank of Thor, the Fort Beard Glacier grinds down from the Penny Ice Cap. While climbers seek to challenge the face of the mountain, the top-down strategy of the rappel team was to ascend the gradual slope of the moraine to the ice cap, then cross to the backside of the mountain for a gentler ascent to the summit rig point. On the first day of the ascent, less than halfway up the moraine, those at the head of the line stopped below the intended camp. The next day the team established a second camp at the base of the scree slope leading to the summit. But the planned two-day ascent to the rig point degenerated into a week of searching for the right route, enduring miserable weather, dicey climbs, and traverses, equipment failure, diminishing food, and declining morale.
On July 20, 2004 amid a heavy snowstorm, the team finally reached the summit. Over the next day, during short breaks in the storm, they began to rig the rope so that it would be ready the moment the weather cleared. Before the team dropped the big rope into place, Englett descended a 300-foot section in an attempt to find the friction padding that had been left in place after the 1982 rappel. Fog swirled in and a layer of frost coated his gear and skin. He ascended without finding the pad. It was to be the only taste any of the team would know of the face of Mount Thor. There remains no single cause for the team's decision, on or near July 22, 2004 to abandon their quest. Instead, there were many small causes, each now a bone of contention between the two leaders. Most of the men want to return to try again, and plans are in the works for a 2006 Mount Thor Expedition. Who will lead it remains uncertain.
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Kelly
Beginner
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Post by Kelly on Mar 16, 2006 7:29:49 GMT -5
My husband is just livid about the new leadership of this team. He even wrote a response he wants me to post to tagnet, but I think he should think about it for a few more days and try to cool off.
This morning on tagnet the person 'in charge' of the new expedition said that this whole thing was "none of our business" because it didn't have anything to do with caves or caving. I found this really distasteful considering they have asked for money and supplies from the caving community. If this guy is their spokesperson, I don't view them as a very professional organization!
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Mar 16, 2006 9:13:38 GMT -5
It is always good to take a little breather.
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Post by Sharon Faulkner on Mar 17, 2006 10:16:45 GMT -5
More interesting views on the upcoming Thor Expedition this morning on Tag-Net. Seems to be the topic du jour. ;D
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Mar 17, 2006 10:40:54 GMT -5
Yes, "Thor" definitely ranked higher today on posts than "Cave Rat Assassins". But I'm still pondering that "swimming pool" post. I don't know if this is correct but overall my take is that cavers, sponsors, etc, who have donated and supported the Thor Expedition would like to hear some answers. Has Tiny had a good breather now?
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Kelly
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Post by Kelly on Mar 17, 2006 13:35:55 GMT -5
I don't know if this is correct but overall my take is that cavers, sponsors, etc, who have donated and supported the Thor Expedition would like to hear some answers. I think the hard part of this for the tag cavers is that we know these people. I'm friends with a couple of those guys on the trip. The girl today (girlfriend of one of the team) who defended the Thor team's right to ditch Tiny is a friend of mine who has helped me out on some projects of mine. No one wants to think something bad about their friend, and would rather defend their friend in the wrong than admit that their friend has done something bad. If the tables were turned and it was Tiny who ditched someone else, I suspect they would be going the other way. As you guys know I don't hold personal grudges when I express my opinions. I do, however, call them like I see them. I do agree with you Lynn. I think people are questioning this heavily because when the Thor spokes person posted their web site on tagnet, he was essentially asking the group for donations. Anyone that asks for money should be able to respond to questions about the integrity of the trip. Would our donations be paying for a bunch of yahoos to go have an exclusive vacation in the Arctic Circle, or is this money going to something actually worth while? Is it true that Tiny saved someone's life at Bridge Day who was in an out-of-control rappel? A good friend of Tiny's told me that, but you know how rumors go...
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Mar 17, 2006 14:11:26 GMT -5
I do agree with you Lynn. I think people are questioning this heavily because when the Thor spokes person posted their web site on tagnet, he was essentially asking the group for money. Anyone that asks for money should be able to respond to questions about the integrity of the trip. Would our donations be paying for a bunch of yahoos to go have an exclusive vacation in the Arctic Circle, or is this money going to something actually worth while? Yes, any group that asks for and/or accepts donations automatically seems it has a certain amount of obligation to the donors as well as to any sponsors whose name appears as supporting the project. After all, these folks are interested enough in the project to put money and/or gear behind it and so are also interested in the results. Along those lines these groups should also be prepared to provide an account of how the donation(s) were spent, a report on the success, problem areas and/or failure of the project, etc, etc, etc. If these are not freely available many people may be reluctant to support future projects. Besides all that I'd just like to hear about the project.
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Post by Sharon Faulkner on Mar 17, 2006 18:16:41 GMT -5
But I'm still pondering that "swimming pool" post. Glad to hear someone else didn't understand the swimming pool references. I'm sure it was being used as a metaphor with meaning in regards to something, but darned if I could make heads or tails out of it. ;D I also didn't understand one of the other post, asking who owned Thor and comparing Thor to a grotto. I may need to go back and read it again, it was still early for me when I perused Tag-Net this morning.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Mar 19, 2006 9:58:08 GMT -5
Tisk, tisk, tisk....I was shocked to read that threats of physical violence may had been made! Isn't it considered a crime for a man to threaten physical violence to another caver? Especially to a woman?
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Post by Sharon Faulkner on Mar 19, 2006 21:01:37 GMT -5
Tisk, tisk, tisk....I was shocked to read that threats of physical violence had been made!
Isn't it considered a crime for a man to threaten physical violence to another caver? Especially to a woman? Um...lots to ponder on here. Guess this will bring a few new round of opinions to the "non-TAGland topic" and a few more rounds of "none of anyone's business" what goes on too. ;D ;D Odd that some folks respond with their opinion on this topic and then state this topic shouldn't be on Tag-Net and other people should take their opinion off list. But does anyone listen, nooo....they respond just like they are entitled to their own opinion. It's that pesky free-will thing rearing its ugly head again. ;D
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Mar 20, 2006 9:32:13 GMT -5
Even more to ponder ...... judgementalism. Pardon me for asking but wasn't that post also passing judgement?
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Kelly
Beginner
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Post by Kelly on Mar 20, 2006 9:50:48 GMT -5
I think its that 'last word' thing. Whoever gets the last word will 'win' - whatever that means. It is hilarious to read someone express their opinion, then tell others not to express their's.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Mar 20, 2006 9:58:22 GMT -5
Oh, so it must have a subliminal message ....... Don't do as I do.......do as I say do? ;D
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Brian Roebuck
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Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Mar 21, 2006 7:39:27 GMT -5
Hopefully, mercifully, Dr Beaner will have the last - errrm - "words" on all that on TAG-NET. Too much feudin going on! Until the next great crisis.......
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Mar 21, 2006 9:01:30 GMT -5
Perhaps Dr. B. will consider posting his message on U.S. Cavers too?
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Post by eyecave on Mar 27, 2006 19:38:44 GMT -5
:)this is not a reply......i am simply checking in on the Thor 0h six fix thingy....... i am not surprised that one thor team member is absent.....but i am surprised that jamie E isn't going......is it a "health consideration" that is stopping him? ben kim was the biggest holdup at thor 0h four...every exp. has a member that is overwhelmed with the environment and proceedings.....so his absence is something i could have predicted..... .....but i am surprised that jamie is missing out.....
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on Mar 28, 2006 8:18:24 GMT -5
Welcome to US Cavers Dan! A persons health would probably be one of the key factors on an expedition such as this. Perhaps it is better to plan to skip the trip.......than to possibly regret it later.
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Post by Off Rope on Mar 28, 2006 16:38:08 GMT -5
Kelly,
We did nothing to TinY except tell him to get in shape and in fact cautioned him repeatedly against any actions until we had permission from Parcs Canada.
We will never convince TinY that we did nothing wrong because he thinks we didn't need permission. As is typical of the "Arrogant American" syndrome that the Inuit's have come to expect, Tiny thought he was just going to waltz in the park by forking over the $$ like he was entering Yosemite. That could not be further from the truth. In fact, it was not until we attended the mandatory park briefing in 2004 before we actually received permission to ENTER the park. It is in the Park's best interests not to let any old yahoo into the park. We were asked detailed questions regarding our knowledge of Polar Bears, polar weather and park rules. It was not until we demonstrated our competencies were we allowed entry.
I quote an e-mail from the Warden dated 14 December 2005. "Dirk, Sorry for the delayed response. I am eager to see the DVD you mention below. I regret to inform you that I cannot merely grant you permission to do your proposed rappel. That decision will have to come from the management team, comprised of managers in our park offices here in Nunavut, including the superintendent. I'll guide you in tweaking your trip to help make it happen. Much of this will ensure you expedition is managed in a way to address both environmental concerns and public safety. Safety is paramount.
I trust your DVD will help me better understand the experience your team members have, but I welcome a paragraph on each team member of their experience and training.
I hope you can forward a detailed itinerary of the expedition. When do you plan to do this? How long do you plan to be in the park? How do plan to get you rope(s) to the park?, not to mention gear and food. How many people will be on your team? The 2004 rappel was limited to 8 people, to ensure other visitors' enjoyment was not to be impaired.
Other things come to mind. Do you plan to base camp? Where and how long? How long do you figure it will take to ascend Thor?
Once you're on top. What will you use for anchor(s)? What will you use for rope(s)? I assume you will use the SRT? How long will the rope(s) be hanging? How many people will be on the rope(s) or how many will ascend or descend? Will you have a schedule?
You should develop a detailed contingency plan. In the event of a serious incident, how do you plan to evacuate team members if there is a need? You may want to consider having a helicopter on standby. As you know from our pre-trip information package, we have limited staff, training, and resources. One search and rescue effort can devastate operating budgets for the park.
What will you use for communication?
Do you know how (and when) you'll get to the park? Will you use outfitters? Will you consider porters? What do you plan to do with the rope after wards? I'll give you a hint from the 2004 rappel. There was some political support, since the 2004 rappel promised to donate their rope to the community. The community is comprised of many hunters and few of them have jobs. They all rely on rope on a daily basis for their snowmobile and qamutiik, as well as on their boats.
You already mentioned you'll use Wag bags for human waste. Great. Everything you bring to the park shall be packed out.
As for permits and licenses. If you plan to have any filming of the event, you'll need to apply for a filming permit. I can forward an application to you if required. If you plan to have a helicopter on standby, we can proceed with an aircraft access permit as well.
Any concerns or questions, do not hesitate to contact me. I will let you know of any proposed climbs on Thor if they arise, for your information.
Sincerely,
Monty Yank, Warden II Auyuittuq National Park of Canada P.O. Box 353 Pangnirtung, NU X0A 0R0 Tel. 867-473-2502 Fax. 867-473-8612 Email. monty.yank@pc.gc.ca"
We did not receive permission until the day after Winy sent his e-mail to us advising us for the FIRST time that he'd quit his job and lost all the $$ he SAYS he lost. He waited a week before posting the same e-mail to TAGNET.
And, if TinY had suffered such a financial loss, why did he spend $600 for a plane ticket and $100 for a rental car to personally confront one of our members? If the loss was so devastating, why waste it on something so extravagant?
Why does everyone seem to believe him and not us? I do not know. I do know that not everyone DOES believe him and I have received messages to the fact privately.
We also have not requested donations from anyone and only posted the web page to TAGNET in case anyone wanted to follow our progress. In fact, the ONLY donation we have received is from a non-caver and all he wants in return is a picture of us on the summit of Mount Thor holding an American Flag. He is a personal friend of mine who believes in us and what we are trying to do.
Regarding the rescue that Mike called out, you failed to mention that a rescue never occurred since I was able to self-rescue. Ask Mike where I was when he returned to the parking spot. I was on the side of the road waiting for him. Have you never made a mistake on rope? I hope not.
Does anyone recall the incident at the Tyrolean Traverse (I did not witness it but have heard first hand accounts) when one of the members of the HCRU told a local to stop stepping on the rope or he'd throw him off the cliff, then the yahoo turned around and jumped off? Was it HIS fault or the yahoo's for nearly killing himself? This is the type of metaphor I was striving for when I wrote about the empty pool.
As Forrest Gump said, "Stupid is, as stupid does."
"That's all I have to say about that."
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Post by Cavers Wife on Mar 28, 2006 16:43:34 GMT -5
Hi fellow cavers.
Well, I am new to the post, but have information about Thor to share with all of you as I am a spouse of one of the team members (from 04 and now 06).... I hope that this does not step on anyone’s feelings, but just want to offer some insight on this subject…
Bumping here....
" do agree with you Lynn. I think people are questioning this heavily because when the Thor spokes person posted their web site on tagnet, he was essentially asking the group for money. Anyone that asks for money should be able to respond to questions about the integrity of the trip. Would our donations be paying for a bunch of yahoos to go have an exclusive vacation in the Arctic Circle, or is this money going to something actually worth while?” “ Yes, any group that asks for and/or accepts donations automatically seems it has a certain amount of obligation to the donors as well as to any sponsors whose name appears as supporting the project. After all, these folks are interested enough in the project to put money and/or gear behind it and so are also interested in the results. Along those lines these groups should also be prepared to provide an account of how the donation(s) were spent, a report on the success, problem areas and/or failure of the project, etc, etc, etc. If these are not freely available many people may be reluctant to support future projects. Besides all that I'd just like to hear about the project. "
I understand that since the team has asked for donations that some may think the team has to justify (or is obligated) to let it be known why certain decisions were made regarding a particular member...
Bottom line here is that the person who was bumped off the team was bumped off due to a TEAM decision. The team did not feel comfortable with him. This expedition is a very serious one - It takes dedication and it is very important that the team be able to get along and respect each other, as they will be away from civilization for many weeks. Obviously the team felt this individual would hinder the whole team. Based on his reaction, ie TAGNET- I think you can see what kind of hindrance he could of played on the team as a whole.
I can assure you that this is not a group of silly yahoos running off for a vacation in the Artic Circle. This is a team of extremely dedicated, strong-willed, safe and responsible cavers/climbers. It is very hard for the families that they will leave behind. Their families will not have any contact with them for almost 1 1/2 months. They will only have each other and obviously personalities must click to be able to make the team a success.
I am honored to say that my husband is part of this team. Only one could be so lucky. Please help the morale of the team by supporting them. This is a true dream for all of them.
Ben K. has chose not to go for good reasons. I can also assure you that Jamey E. has elected not to go for no reason other than it is just not in his heart this time. It was a tremendous let down to the team in 2004. All of them were very emotional – they busted their tails, hiked for days, ran into weather conditions where they all could have died. The team could not complete the mission because of weather and time. Not for any other reason...They had a permit that would have expired on a certain date, and if they had stayed to wait out the weather, they would not have been invited back to try it again.
Please, as a caring community of cavers that we are, let’s respect one another and one’s decisions. The team says it was for the best of the team. It was a decision made by all. It was not just one person that said “You are out!” Now – they are all leaving their jobs and families to do this. Let’s just encourage them to be their best and to succeed. The Fix in 06!!!
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