1000' drops on racks with no spacers

[Rebel Rouser]

Who is rappelling big drops using racks without spacers.....besides me? kent

[hohum]

I'm very interested in this this question too. But I think a little more information is needed before some good numbers can come from it. I've done three drops over 1000' (some more than once) all using my long rack with 24" travel never with any spacers. I know Dan disagrees but I find them inherently dangerous and completely unnecessary. Maybe It's my ignorance because of never having used them but that's my opinion.

BTW - I've done many drops between 600' and 1000' using my regular rack with 14" travel, also without spacers.

But Kent, I don't think it's the length of the drop necessarily but more the length of the rack that is of importance. In my experience a longer rack allows more bars to be in play while still maintaining necessary distance between them. We all know that the top two or three bars are "locked" in place any way once a couple of hundred pounds is applied. But by having a longer rack it allows you to spread out the bottom three bars sufficiently to get a smooth, fast ride while keeping six bars on the rack that can be jammed for a quick stop.

I just remembered taking my long rack to Whiteside's and using it there a couple of times. Other than it being heavy and cumbersome, I recall it giving me as smooth a ride as I could ask for.

Bottom line - Spacers - never used'em and don't plan to.

[Brian Roebuck]

I'm not much of a vertical caver but I've always heard spacers work well for heavier people due to the tendancy for the top two bars to jam too tightly under their weight thus having spacers gives them more ride control. I never have used them but at over 200 lbs I can see some validity to that idea as I have had the top two bars get really tight at the start of some rappels. That makes for a jerky ride and a struggle to get transitioned from horizontal at the lip to vertical. Of course rope friction plays into that too.

[Josh Babcock]

I am a 145# caver, and I am not a huge fan of spacers. They seem to work very well for other people, but not me. I still use a 1 1/4" spacer on my 16" rack for drops up to about 1200'. I am currently training for longer drops and tandem rappels and have found that I have much more control and braking power on my 24" rack without spacers. I don't yet have a theory as to why this is, but after a lot of trial and error I am sure that it is the right thing for me.

Josh

[Tony Pugh]

I just joined this forum.
I also am a 145lb. caver. I have found I need very small 1/2" spacers between the first two bars on my rack to keep them just far enough apart to keep them from pinching the rope. Without them, my rack will pinch even a Blue Water rope to the point where I will not move. With them in place, I can control the other bars with no problem. I have used other racks without spacers on the same rope and the same drop and done just fine. It seems to just be part of the nature of my own rack that says it wants spacers.

Tony

[Rebel Rouser]

Tony, how many bars do you have in use when the rope 'pinch and stop' occur? kent

[eyecave]

so......tell me....what is wrong with using spacer?. ;D....a person who uses spacers makes his or her's rack more predictable.... .......the rope also, cannot be pinched to the point that the rap is halted..... ........

you are supposed to have enough bars in reserve and in use to maintain control,..not just to be able to keep moving......... ....

[eyecave]

kent...tony is using a spacer that mimics the diameter of the rope in use.....spacers of that width prevent "pinched rope syndrome"........

[eyecave]

JOSH.........is the reason you feel you have more control over your rap based partly on the use of one fewer brake bar?........

[Rebel Rouser]

"so......tell me....what is wrong with using spacer?".

I'm working on it.

"...a person who uses spacers makes his or hers rack more predictable.."

Sez you...I musta got my rack on another planet. I'll put my rack against yours as far as performance anytime.

"...the rope also, cannot be pinched to the point that the rap is halted.."

This is something that I do not have a problem with.

"you are supposed to have enough bars in reserve and in use to maintain control,..not just to be able to keep moving.."

Isn't control and the ability to keep moving the same thing? How could one have control and not be able to move?
"Enough bars" how many is that with spacers? Without spacers 5 is plenty for me.

Ah..."pinched rope syndrome"....must be a disease that I just never caught! ;D kent

[eyecave]

solemmeseeaa here.......if i am using spacers....and as a direct result of those spacers..... my rack........i say,.. my rack IS FAST enough that i can rig in five bars and control my rap with the fourth one or .......later...........i can rig in six bars and control my rap with my fifth one...........
and i can slow my rap by just lifting the one i have in reserve whenever i want........sixizwhatiendupwithusually......

hmmmm... .

[Josh Babcock]

eyecave said:

JOSH.........is the reason you feel you have more control over your rap based partly on the use of one fewer brake bar?........

eyecave,

I doubt it, I pretty much use the same number of bars as when I used spacers. I think the difference is that I pay a lot more attention to upper bar spacing than most people do. I have noticed that most cavers only move the bottom bar. I have found that I get the best results by putting the bottom bar all the way down to the nut and controlling the rappel with the second to last bar. If you watch me rappel on a long drop you will see me adjusting every bar below the #2 bar at one point or another. I think that this helps lessen the forces that push the #2 bar up into the #1 bar.

I wouldn't be surprised if my rack pinched the rope if I were to stop paying attention, but in my book, that's a good thing. Inattention (for any reason, but especially loss of consciousness) should cause you to slow down, not speed up.

And that bottom bar? It comes up when I need to slow down fast, and it works real well too.

Josh

[Rebel Rouser]

"kent...tony is using a spacer that mimics the diameter of the rope in use.....spacers of that width prevent "pinched rope syndrome"........

Thanks dan.

Tony, how many bars do you have in use when the rope 'pinch and stop' occur? kent

[Rebel Rouser]

Anyone...... When 'pinched rope' occurs does this lead to slowing or stopping the rappel or just an uneasyness as to how tight the rope is being pinched? kent

[Tim White]

rebelrouser said:

Anyone...... When 'pinched rope' occurs does this lead to slowing or stopping the rappel or just an uneasyness as to how tight the rope is being pinched? kent

For me...slowing or stopping the rappel, that is why I use spacers.

[Innermostphoto]

Been using spacers for 19 years and I aint dead yet..though for some it may be wishful thinking Still, multiple thousand footers on the same rack with spacers have been just fine. No, they are not for everyone.

Bob Biddix
Innermost Imagery
www.innermostimagery.com

[tagkaver]

i have done 1000' drops with no spacers ad on my regular 5 bar rack..

[happykillmore]

Very important please read. When I was going to El Capitan and Half Dome in 1992 , One of the biggest questions was how many bars should we use because of the rope weight and what about spacers. Some guys who had done El cap before said that they used 4 bars and had to do leg wraps to stop at the bottom and just laughed it off. No one really had an answer so we were moving into unknown territory where people were using spacers on big drops but were not adding bars. On our trip we found the answer to this question not to be a laughing matter. Everyone on the trip had experience but going from 600' to 2600' is a completely different game. You must use a bigger rack because of the rope weight and as you know on big drops you are usually on new rope which is slick to say the least. A spacer on a 1000' drop may not be necessary but on a 2000' drop , you better think again. But remember when you add a spacer you should add a bar to your rack because you are limiting the amount of friction you can generate from the bars surrounding the spacer and you may need an extra bar at the bottom as the rope weight decreases. Using a haul system is the safest way to go over the edge because you use more bars and when the rope weight is lowered you can remove bars as needed. One member of our expidition went over with the rope weight and 3 bars. when he got all of his weight on the rope he couldnt slow himself because of the spacers and he died to make a long story short. So here are my recommendations from experience. Spacers are needed between the first and second bar only and remember to add another bar to your rack in case you need it. Some people use more spacers but you better KNOOOOOOOOOOOOW what your doing and be amoung the elite. You may be rappelling with your backpac so be prepared. only remove it after experience on big drops with new ropes tells you you dont need it. AND NEVER go below 5 bars with one spacer unless after much experience and trial and error tell you that you just cant move because of the rope weight, without removing another bar.
This post is dedicated to the memory of Rob moore.

[happykillmore]

Lot of good points i agree with. My main concern is for those who don't know and i want them to get the answers we didnt have 15 years ago. I use two collars on each side between the 1st and 2nd bar. It gives about an inch of spacing.I think that is all anyone would ever need because when you get moving and spread your bars apart and get them set where you want them , the 3rd bar isnt going anywhere and you can still use it to stop. If you are setting up your rack for a big drop and dont have big drop experience i would recommend this setup and rap with at least 5 bars and 2 in reserve. you can always take one off if you have to but dont do it to make it easy just if you have no choice. Some people use more spacers but i wouldnt recommend it unless you really know what your doing. those that do also add bars to their rack. But more spacers are not neceswsary. I rapped El cap on my 18" rack with 5 bars and no haul system. It was very hard work and my hands were cramping from lifting and feedeing rope thru and my legs were noodles but i wasnt dropping a bar because i knew i could do it with 5. A spacer just makes it easier on big drops so you dont have to work so hard especially if you arent using a haul system to get over the edge. It also could be safer because you dont have to drop as many bars to get over the edge , again if you not using a haul system to raise the rope weight.
The guy that died on our trip had practiced rappelling with 200 lbs under him in a tree i think. but remember you cant practice going over an edge from a tree.