|
|
Post by eyecave on Aug 12, 2006 21:53:51 GMT -5
First of all...  ...i don't want anyone to post anything except a response to my question......if you post some type of opinion you will influence every other person who happens to log onto this question.....if the posts take a particular direction you will totally invalidate this survey..... i realize that some of us will have a very hard tyme from making some type of comment about the survey.....like the obvious fact i asked two questions instead of one etc.......PLEASE REALIZE THAT IF YOU POST SOME TYPE OF POST OTHER THAN A SIMPLE CLICK OF YOUR MOUSE YOU ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THE INACCURACY FACTORS IN THIS SURVEY.......CONTROL YOURSELVES FOR A FEW DAYS GUYS AND GALS!!   ....ok, you are at the lip and you are clipping in your last bar....the yawning chasm awaits..... STYLE ONE  : when you have that last bar clipped in and drop over the edge, the first thing you do is space the bars so that you begin to move..as you space them and before you start movement..is your spacing as tight as you can with the lowest the loosest, or is it kinda symmetrical tension spacing on the bars that you have as your goal......AND as you start your rap and on....do you rely on grip on the rope and hip friction to control the rate of your descent.....and do you also add bars based on the friction in your gloved hand.... STYLE TWO when you have that last bar clipped in and drop over the edge, the first thing you do is space the bars so that you begin to move..as you space them and before you start movement..is your spacing as tight as you can with the lowest the loosest, or is it kinda symmetrical tension spacing on the bars that you have as your goal......AND as you start your rap and on...do you rely on the pushing up of the bars as your mainly emphasized method of applying friction......and do you also add bars based mainly on the spacing of your engaged bars?... |
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Aug 12, 2006 22:00:18 GMT -5
>:(IT IS very counter productive to show the voter the votestatistics before they have voted...i just spent a while composing a letter telling you guys that.............................................................elementary level statistic courses will tell you that the only way you let people being surveyed know the trends is if you are attempting to study the influences that that has......please delete the part where you can see how people are voting or you are screwing this up.........when you show them the results AFTER THEY HAVE VOTED you don't influence their vote...  ...this is rather basic type of thinking among scientists in doing surveys.....................thanks....you may delete this post after you have taken the voter statistics out of this site........... |
|
|
|
Post by Sharon Faulkner on Aug 12, 2006 22:30:11 GMT -5
We're looking in to it Dan. Hang in there...this situation hasn't come up before now.
Edited to add: Sorry Dan, this is software specific. We can't change it.
|
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Aug 14, 2006 20:18:51 GMT -5
oh well.... ...can the vote be hidden or in some way moved and simply kept from people seeing it?......when you are doing a survey it really will have an influence that effects the way people vote and it is irrelavent that they even know the vote percentages until after the data is gathered.!!!!!!!......  ..in other words......your survey software is bogus dude.........  ... ...it can be fixed......!!!....... |
|
|
|
Post by madratdan on Aug 15, 2006 14:31:52 GMT -5
..in other words......your survey software is bogus dude......... ... ...it can be fixed......!!!....... The main problem with our software is.................it's free ........so is the server space We don't pay a dime to have this discussion board up and running. The moral is........you get what you pay for......so.....yes......the poll portion of this software sucks purple pony puds. ;D |
|
NZcaver
Beginner
U.S. Caver
Posts: 140
|
Post by NZcaver on Aug 15, 2006 14:39:39 GMT -5
I'd like to believe the previous results didn't influence the way I voted - but as Dan said it's a free DB, so c'est la vie... [Spam removed by moderator]  |
|
|
|
Post by madratdan on Aug 15, 2006 15:10:43 GMT -5
I too was not influenced by seeing how others voted Butt then again..........I was the first to vote. ;D |
|
Brian Roebuck
Site Admin
Caver
Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
Posts: 2,732
|
Post by Brian Roebuck on Aug 15, 2006 16:35:05 GMT -5
Actually eyecave I think of rappel control a bit differently than your two somewhat limited choices so it was a toss-up for me in the way I voted.
My method uses the bar spacing as coarse friction adjustment with the gloved hand and hip as fine friction adjustment. In that sense I could vote either way???
Actually I would pose the questions a bit differently and perhaps have more than two choices - but this is your poll and I voted honestly based on my overall methodology.
If you really want a blind poll you can have everyone PM the results to you and then display the final results later. We'll just have to trust you on the talley. ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by Dee on Aug 16, 2006 15:13:47 GMT -5
I noted how others voted but I was not influenced either.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tim White on Aug 16, 2006 15:27:03 GMT -5
I voted, but neither style really describes how I start at the lip while the “the yawning chasm awaits.....”
Almost always I start with 6 bars engages until my full weight is in the rope. Then I drop the 6th bar and set #5 to control my rate of decent. I control my rappel with the bottom bar, not a “brake-hand”. I run the rope between my legs and my right hand just cradles the rope loosely. (I can apply force with my free hand if needed.)
|
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Aug 17, 2006 23:09:00 GMT -5
tim you are a user of type B method of control......and doctor beaner...you are a user of type A method.........(i would be happy to do a tally vote as suggested but i think i have enough data to preach my point)!!! two things made me want to do this survey....the recent vertical event we alllllll know about and something rebelrouser said.....kent brought up the death of the colorado feller at el cap.....not a week before he said what he said i had been sitting on smokey c's frount porch.....discussing things as the evening fell....smokey was talking about when, right after the accident, they had stretched out the very el cap rope that the co guy was riding down in his frount yard...(smokey has a very wide frount yard).......his description of the story the rope told reminded me of a point i made a long time ago...........that probably just pissed people off at the time... from what i have heard from the source........jim youmans said he (the co guy) was attempting to start his rap immediately after jim had taken the, just-below-the-lip obligatory picture......... jim said that he turned away for just a second..........looked back and he was "gone"...... according to jim he looked down at a rapper who had lost control.....and it stayed that way.......indications were clearly that he had a very early loss of control.....something that might have happened at thor.... i really don't want to describe the type of injuries the guy at el cap or the cartwheeling out of control stuff at thor that an out of control event, due to the j, would have happened..... so i won't.. ..but the elcapguys injuries mirror an attempt to employ a very dangerous style of rap control that was taught, at one time, as the main form or style of rapping........it is not as commonly taught now but, my point, it is still being passed on......SOMETIMES COMPLETELY UNDILUTED........this very subtle technique needs to be pointed out as the potential major potential source of out of control raps........ a significant number of people, who did vote in this survey, indicated a lean to using their friction hand, hip or thigh as a part of their rap technique that had some importance........others, the majority, said their technique involved the manipulation of the bars of their rack....and that the right hand was either unimportant or a last second last resort method of applying friction to the rope to slow their rappel......that people is my point...... before anyone points out the many variables i did not address please note the two that i did address....friction using the dominant hand and/or hip...or not..... the caver who uses his hip and gloved hand regularly as nothing other than a guide and control of the rope below his rack......let me phrase it another way so i am sure you understand.....if your descent is controlled by anything other than your left hand....you are in danger of becoming an injury or fatality in a rappeling accident! i was taught the wrong rappeling technique.....i was taught to add a bar when the friction in my gloved hand got to a certain point that was determined by the glove friction AND NOT THE BAR (s) POSITION ON THE RACK...................... using the friction of the right hand and hip is inviting disaster into the cave as a team member............the next bar should be added based on the bar (s) configuration and all of the engaged-bars relationships, you know what i mean.... ..how tight they all are...... this, not only will give you a more controllable and smoother rap....you also would have just majically acquired an experienced backup to stopping the out-of-control rap you might experience from your first attempt to change/and/or employ this right hand to left hand shift of emphasis............i am talking about the right hand and hip as the back-up emergency only..... .....shift the focus of your control to the left....and completely away from the right....go on, commit an act that is against most of your's nature...heheheheheheh...or....you are already aware, now, that you have already learned how to do that!....  ........ |
|
NZcaver
Beginner
U.S. Caver
Posts: 140
|
Post by NZcaver on Aug 18, 2006 0:07:53 GMT -5
Eyecave - your post makes good sense. After I managed to, er... make sense of it. It seems I'm the one that voted against the grain, and I'll explain why. You did not specify the TYPE of rack. When I was introduced to vertical caving, we all used regular-sized U-racks - period. There was no ability to add or drop bars once on-rope. Your master hand (the right for most people) controlled the rope, and the other hand - if needed at all - was used to spread or compress the bars on longer drops. This technique works fine, at least up to ~200m. Since that time I've graduated to using other descenders, mostly autostop bobbins and micro-racks. I do have one full-sized J-rack, but it virtually never gets used. Hence my right hand (and hip when needed) is my primary method of friction control while descending. However, if I were to start hanging off El Cap, Golandrinas and the like... then my J-rack would come out, your advice would be heeded, and I would practice, practice, practice! ;D |
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Aug 18, 2006 0:23:16 GMT -5
i do hate to inform the nss caving public that enjoys this site......i hate to say something that makes me the bearer of bad news...........as far as......as.......as fasr....uh....as far as influencing surveys...........well.....well.........
i .......i uh........i hate to say it but there are phd directed studies that show that the majority of surveyed folk will say that they are not influenced by the revealing of data in voting situations....and with thousands of voters involved the tendency shows up in the data......
now in situations where you deal with thousands of voters and hundreds of voters...in situations where there are a large number...knowing the direction of the voting always has an effect of influencing a percentage of voters to press the most popular key......this has been show for over a hundred years in research folks....please research something know as the SCIENTIFIC METHOD.....just goggle that......i am right...period.......
but........this is a different group of people.....these folk are cavers.......... i am sure that we are a very research data-prejudiced group in a number of subtle ways.....i..therefore i can assume that no more than a normal deviation would occur and that my vote taken thus far can be used to validly indicate a point.....thankyaverymush.....
|
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Aug 18, 2006 0:27:05 GMT -5
thank you nz caver for your response......so you correctly assumed that i was talking about the j type of rack......i forgot to say i was talking about j type racks only....... ....it is tomorrow afternoon where you are........are you a footy fan?.... what's the toughest tip this week? bullies crows....dockers saints or roos demons?...... ...... |
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Aug 18, 2006 0:35:43 GMT -5
Eyecave - your post makes good sense. After I managed to, er... make sense of it. i realize that people need to read what i say more than once.....i am sorry for that.....but, i can't change what i am..........i can't do grammer.............lost memories.............. i have worked out a method of communicating thru the written word that actually seems to work well......at least ..for me it seems that way.....but i have an advantage over the reader...i can hear me saying it!......so....i realize that my style is confusing at times...... i will only get better with time.....until the end comes..... ...... |
|
NZcaver
Beginner
U.S. Caver
Posts: 140
|
Post by NZcaver on Aug 18, 2006 0:36:38 GMT -5
thank you nz caver..i forgot to say i was talking about racks only...........it is tomorrow afternoon where you are........are you a footy fan?.... what's the toughest tip this week? bullies crows....dockers saints or roos demons?...... ...... Hey eyecave, Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm living in Washington state right now - and it's 10:30pm. Plus I'm not a big footy fan, nor much of a beer drinker. Sorry to shatter the stereotype.  At least I get to go caving occasionally, though! ;D PS - Despite having a unique writing style (for good reason), you DO get your point across! Keep up the good advice!!!  |
|
|
|
Post by eyecave on Aug 18, 2006 0:43:13 GMT -5
nz = new zealand.....dammit....it was a good fantasy while it lasted....all optional illusions are not bad.....they are usually good....
|
|
NZcaver
Beginner
U.S. Caver
Posts: 140
|
Post by NZcaver on Aug 18, 2006 1:08:52 GMT -5
nz = new zealand.....dammit....it was a good fantasy while it lasted....all optional illusions are not bad.....they are usually good.... Well if it's any consolation, even though I'm currently living in the US I'll always be a Kiwi... |
|
|
|
Post by randyrn on Nov 20, 2006 5:11:45 GMT -5
I TOTALLY appreciate this thread! I'm no doubt like many others in that I initially learned to focus more on the brakehand than the actual brake itself. I still remember reaching the bottom of Fantastic Pit with a brakehand that I almost had to pry off the rope due to excessive fatigue! The strength of my grip rather than a properly controlled BRAKE bar rack was the only thing preventing a bloody puddle in TAG Hall. Bruce Smith eventually pounded correct technique into my thick skull. Now I teach people to place their focus on the brake itself rather than the so-called brakehand. I always try to fine tune my friction using the BRAKE bar rack so that I don't really need an entire brakeHAND. I only need my thumb and index finger gripping the rope. The rest of the work is done by my control hand as it adjusts and controls the brake. In my estimation, many people are way to eager to start popping bars off rather than FIRST adjusting the spacing between the bars to see if that approach will work.
|
|
|
|
Post by lava on Nov 21, 2006 14:08:11 GMT -5
eyecave, your ellipsis are killing me. I can't comprehend the initial question because of them. I can't tell which phrases are grouped together and which aren't. Also you give either/or sub-options in both styles! But here's how I do it:
Sit into the rack with a tight grip with my brake hand, left hand on bottom two rack bars. Weight the rope, spread the bars as evenly as I can (I usually end up with more space between the bottom two bars than any of the others though), and go. I do most of my braking on the way down by pushing up on the bars, with maybe tiny adjustments with the brake hand.
So which style is that?
|
|
....ok, you are at the lip and you are clipping in your last bar....the yawning chasm awaits.....
: when you have that last bar clipped in and drop over the edge, the first thing you do is space the bars so that you begin to move..as you space them and before you start movement..is your spacing as tight as you can with the lowest the loosest, or is it kinda symmetrical tension spacing on the bars that you have as your goal......AND as you start your rap and on....do you rely on grip on the rope and hip friction to control the rate of your descent.....and do you also add bars based on the friction in your gloved hand....
...this is rather basic type of thinking among scientists in doing surveys.....................thanks....you may delete this post after you have taken the voter statistics out of this site........... 
........ 
