L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
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Post by L Roebuck on Jun 10, 2006 17:10:39 GMT -5
This is a bit off topic but I have heard that some rescuers use fire hose as technical rope protection.
Does any one on this forum use it? If so, what are the advantages or the disadvantages?
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Post by geoff on Jun 13, 2006 1:31:51 GMT -5
Hi Lynn
Old UK fire hose works good, its cheap, strong, but a little heavy and inflexible (at least the stuff we have) but seems indestructible. Cut along its length it retains its closed flat form and only needs a tie at the top to stop it slipping out of position ( but is difficult to cut ! )
That said, the few yards I was given by a Fireman heights specialist has never been used; The cost of purpose made Velcro tape closed rope protector is cheap and we have little need to use it anyway as we try and rig to avoid ropes over ridge edges.
When its not avoidable, my own choice is a couple of purpose made rope protectors, just because I find them a little easier. Otherwise I may use a rope bag for this purpose ( we carry our SRT ropes is bags in the UK for protection, ie not climber style)
I would say the fire hose is great for heavy use, rescue teams, top pitch, price. It does the job - what more can you ask.
Hope this helps
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L Roebuck
Technical Support
Caving
^V^ Just a caver
Posts: 2,023
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Post by L Roebuck on Jun 14, 2006 12:32:41 GMT -5
Yes that helps - Thanks geoff ! ;D
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Post by geoff on Jun 17, 2006 17:53:21 GMT -5
Tim Hi !
Ive been away at an exhibition in France, so sorry only had time now to add a response to your posting
If I could comment on your 3 methods of quickly getting a person off a single rope …… and I hope I’ve understood correctly …..
Your method 1 – brute force a) this means lifting the subjects full weight TWICE ?? !! Once to remove his jammer and Again during your change over (weight of 2 persons) from ascend to descend.
b) Also, if you should be unable to do this you are in real trouble !
I must say, IMHO, I would not recommend this method.
Your method 2 – Counter Balance AGREE !! good for various weights/strength of rescuer Other similar methods exist around same counter balance principle
Your method 3 – Brute Force Ive no experience with racks so will not comment.
GOOD READ :- I very much favour the book “Alpine Caving Techniques” if you have a chance to borrow this. It details excellent methods of single rope frog rescue.
However, I would also add that IF AT ALL POSSIBLE (and depending on situation) try for a pitch head lower or pitch head lift before you commit to joining the casualty on the same rope.
Also, if you have a spare SRT rope and a knife, a rescue becomes real quick.
To help get one of my friends off the rope, I ALWAYS carry (within reach when SRTing)
a) knife b) whistle c) Krab suitable for Italian hitch d) Petzl mini traxion and its krab e) small plain pulley f) cord but obviously regular practice is needed and I totally agree with Tim that this regular training is REAL IMPORANT .
Geoff
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Post by lava on Nov 21, 2006 14:20:12 GMT -5
I learned American style rigging and rope work. A couple of years ago I went to a favorite cave and found that one of the members with our group rigged it european style including putting bolts at intervals down the main entrance shaft (-315 feet). Hence I had to cross about four bolts where as before it was just a nice straight shot to the bottom of the drop. Just wondering if you're talking about a certain person whose name starts with P and the cave in question is Neilsons Well? If so, that entrance pit needs to be rebelayed, rub spots everywhere. Unless you're aware of a free drop from the other side that I did not see?
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Post by acenthahole on Jun 28, 2007 16:51:52 GMT -5
So many great questions left unanswered, even after all those posts.
First, I agree with Geoff about the competence issue. You shouldn't be on rope if you can't do so safely and correctly all the time. There is no such thing as a valid mistake unless you are not all there. Like if you are hypothermic or dehydrated.
Second, and I mean no offense, but 6 - 12 hours is not a long exhausting trip.
Third, I don't believe one is better than the other. Both have their own benefits and applications. I use both styles on a regular basis. It usually depends on the rope or the amount of rope rub.
And finally, yes, there is a blend of the two styles, which I use all the time. I like to think of it as tolerance, such as in engineering when the dimensions of something have to be so precise or so redundant depending upon the application. Every pit is different, therefore rigging every pit the same can not be the only option you have. If you don't have every style of rigging, climbing, and rappelling in your tool box, you are short changing your caving potential.
I am currently involved in an ongoing project in one of TAGs deepest and toughest caves. If we were to rig it TAG style we would have had to replace every rope by now. We rigged the entire cave so that the rope never touches the rock in a way that it could damage the rope. That isn't to say that the rope doesn't ever touch the rock. We used rebelays, redirects, rope pads, additional bolts, and a whole lot of spectra cord to rig this cave. These ropes have been traveled in this manner countless times with no nasty abrasion to speak of. I believe it was Andy Porter that said it was the best rigging he had ever seen.
Anyway, be safe.
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gindling
Newby
At times, even recklessness seems a bit halfhearted. -Pullion-
Posts: 5
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Post by gindling on Jun 28, 2007 18:48:26 GMT -5
I recently moved to idaho from TAG and have been mainly caving in northern Utah. all the caves are alpine, full of snowmelt, and cold. In the two large vertical caves most pits are over 200ft and full of rebelays and deviations and other euro style rigging. this is so different from TAG, and indestructable rope techniques, but i have come to prefer it. it allows the efficient progress of multiple cavers up these drops instead of standing on a chunk of ice like a penguin, and it also allows more communication which is very important in the swirling vortex of mist and water and wind. We recently had to set another rebelay on a 200+ pit because of a waterfall of snowmelt. now in TAG i would have enjoyed this because it would cool me off and clean off my suit all at the same time but here it would have turned me to a popsicle in no time. I guess im just saying that there is a time and place for all styles and to be an efficient caver you really should know as much as you can about the other ways. Though i will say it will be a welcome relief to fly down Fantastic this fall in true IRT style.
though i would like to say i have a pantin and have really gotten to love the "frogwalker". this was named in the alpine caving techniques book and has seriously sped up my climbing and changeovers. you can do the simultaneous climb like a frog, or in those wet drippy pits or other unfriendly places you can quickly change to an alternating(sp?) foot climb kind of like a ropewalker, much faster though more tiring. check it out in the above mentioned book, im hooked. and by all means get a spectra footloop, it has a smaller diameter and is much more abrasion resistant and has no stretch whatsoever, its magical. I have started to use it for rigging instead of webbing for many reasons but i wont go into that here, some people may get a little squemish. but id be very interested if anyone else has been trying this out and hearing about their experiences. and by the way, spectra (dyneema) is white, it cannot take a dye, so anything with a multicoloured sheath is not pure spectra but spectra with a nylon sheath. If anyone thinks this is false lets talk about it.
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Post by acenthahole on Jun 28, 2007 23:36:02 GMT -5
Great to hear you're coming in to town buddy. Make sure you give us a shout when you come down.
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Brian Roebuck
Site Admin
Caver
Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
Posts: 2,732
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Jun 29, 2007 5:18:47 GMT -5
Gindling,
Is Spectra available in webbing form or just cord? I've heard of it but haven't used it or even seen any of it. It does sound ideal for foot loops etc. Having no stretch would be good for that application.
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Post by Tim White on Jun 29, 2007 8:49:14 GMT -5
Gindling, Is Spectra available in webbing form or just cord? I've heard of it but haven't used it or even seen any of it. It does sound ideal for foot loops etc. Having no stretch would be good for that application. Both Dyneema and Spectra are “brand names” for high modulus polyethylene (HMPE) or high performance polyethylene (HPPE) thermoplastic fibers. It is common to find climbing slings, runners and quickdraws made from Dyneema or Spectra. BlueWater makes 5.5 mm Titan Spectra Cord that I use for my frog foot loops. A very strong fiber for its weight. However it does not stretch, thus a fall onto would produce undesirable shock loading. Good for non-dynamic loading. It also has a much lower melting point than nylon.
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Post by Tim White on Jun 29, 2007 8:57:53 GMT -5
If I could comment on your 3 methods of quickly getting a person off a single rope …… and I hope I’ve understood correctly ….. Your method 1 – brute force a) this means lifting the subjects full weight TWICE ?? !! Once to remove his jammer and Again during your change over (weight of 2 persons) from ascend to descend. b) Also, if you should be unable to do this you are in real trouble ! I must say, IMHO, I would not recommend this method. I agree! I would not use it either. Just posting it for comments.
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gindling
Newby
At times, even recklessness seems a bit halfhearted. -Pullion-
Posts: 5
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Post by gindling on Jun 29, 2007 17:40:13 GMT -5
aye, ill get in touch for sure, somewhere around the cave-in, its been over a year... (though im still waiting to show some TAG folks the limestone mountains out here... obviously there are places that spectra should not be used, like cowstails. its strange sometimes to be using small dia ropes and spectra and then look at your cowtails and realize that they are the thickest rope in the system, though for good reason. In the alpine caving techniques book they speak of flexible anchors. these are small round aluminum hangers with a bolt through the center and then two small holes running on each side of the bolt and perpendicular to it. a loop of spectra is then threaded through these holes and is used to attatch the rope to. it seems the advantages of these is the weight, no krabs and no hangers. the inelastic of the spectra also allows more freedom in its placement seeing how stretching of the rope against a rock is the primary reason of abrasion. the book has many examples of ways to use these. i am very interested in learning more of these but have never actually seen one. does anyone have any experience with these? I would expect the euros on this site may be more familiar with their use, and if im wrong on its description or application please tell me, i only have those drawings to go off of.
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