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Post by Bill Greenwald on May 10, 2006 11:33:17 GMT -5
I can normally find all sorts of illustration and pics on the net to help people improve and perfect their vertical rope climbing experience. Yet, it is very difficult to find much on Changeovers.
Cetainly, the ability to change from rope climbing to a rappel
and back again should be an important issue to illustrate. I see a few caver do it smoothly and quickly while the majority tend to struggle contantly with the sling lengths, including me.
Perhaps someone out there has run across some illustration
or pics on this subject that would be helpful.
Thanks,
Billgrnwld
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L Roebuck
Technical Support
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^V^ Just a caver
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Post by L Roebuck on May 11, 2006 11:37:59 GMT -5
It seems I have seen some good illustrations in the past. But I did a quick google search but did not locate any good rigging, changeover illustrations or pics.
Any one else had any luck?
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Post by Sharon Faulkner on May 11, 2006 15:30:30 GMT -5
Hi Bill and welcome to the forum.  There may be illustrations in On Rope, which is basically the go to book for North American vertical rope techniques. (I know some Alpine cavers would disagree with this assessment, but I'm the one posting. ;D) I can't remember if On Rope has illustrations of changeovers or not, it has been too long. I remember it does have a plethora of illustrations throughout the book. The NSS Bookstore may still have copies for sale if a copy isn't available through your grotto. I basically learned to efficiently do a changeover in my backyard. I rigged ropes in one of the huge oak trees and went out every afternoon after work and would climb up, changeover, and rappel back down repeatedly until I could accomplish a changeover with ease.  Maybe Tim White will see this thread and weigh in. He would most likely know where illustrations on changeovers would be found, if there are any on the net. |
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guanonoggin
Beginner
Dude Caving
U.S. Caver Dude
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Post by guanonoggin on May 14, 2006 16:46:42 GMT -5
Dude! Check it out! The new On Rope book has illustrations of changeovers starting on page 300. They look totally correct and most useful! I never found any on the Net though man, Sorry. "Hang" in there  |
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L Roebuck
Technical Support
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^V^ Just a caver
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Post by L Roebuck on Jun 27, 2006 12:01:57 GMT -5
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Post by eyecave on Jun 29, 2006 0:41:03 GMT -5
hi bill........changeovers huh......well..in going from rap to climb there is only a coupla things that are really critical......number one you need a safety attached to your seat harness that will reach a point that is above your rappeling device......DO NOT make the sling tooo long....the safety you clip in when you stop your rappel need only reach above the top of your descender...the longer it is the more likelihood of problems.....you can use two biners to clip it to your harness if you have an unusual situation requiring extra length... rule number two:........DO NOT DROP YOUR CLIMBING GEAR AS YOU GET IT OUT AND PUT IT ONTO THE ROPE AND ONTO YOURSELF!!......DO NOT DROP ANYTHING!! different systems require different details but what you are doing is wanting to take out your gear and attach it to yourself and then to the rope or to the rope andthen to yourself......if you put it on the rope first i would suggest you pull up a bit of the rope and do an overhand so your gear doesn 't slide away from you..(don't forget to undoe it!!)... when you get everything on you and onto the rope you want to take off your safety and let it resume its role as a safety instead of primary attachment.....when you start climbing don't take a big step.....take a tiny tiny step and release the tension on the upper ascender-safety..... in going from climb to rap?  ?.......why would you wanna do that?..........i have only done that, for real, once.....here the important thing is that the safety reach above the top climbing device.....if the top climbing device is attached or can be attached to a seat harness it can be used as the safety that holds your weight when you are transfering your weight between the climb and rap devices...... get your weight onto the top ascender attached to your seat harness and then release, take off the rope and bag all your climbing equipment (or leave it attached to yourself until you reach bottom).....once everything is off rope take out your rack or rappeling device and attach it to the rope beneath the top safety..onto the unweighted rope.....slide the descender up the rope until it is as tightly pulled as you can do before you attach the last bar or slip the rope into the last groove and close the descender.... then you must transfer your weight to a point on the rope that is below the rappeling devices attachment point...you can lock off the rappel device any way you want.........then you raise yourself up very slightly, take weight off the top safety device, remove it from the rope and then sit down and settle your weight into the rappel device and jam or stop the rappel and WITHOUT DESCENDING ANY FURTHER DOWN THE ROPE THAN ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY get your weight onto the rack and get that lower attachment point off the rope.....jam up the rack bars or squeeze tightly and do not descend the rope any more than an inch if possible when you are transfering the weight from the top ascender onto the rack....this is the critical point in the transfer and it must be done in tiny inch movements.....nothing too rough.... any questions... |
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NZcaver
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Post by NZcaver on Jun 29, 2006 22:00:10 GMT -5
I have one question - why would you ever need to "take out" or "put away" your climbing gear WHILE ON ROPE? Everything I've ever seen and been taught strongly suggests you should always have your ascenders attached to you in a way they can be functional, even for just a "simple rappel". Likewise when climbing, one should always have one's descender attached and ready to use if needed. At the very least, it will save you time and hassle if you need to change over - and minimize the risk of dropping anything. Not to detract from the many words of wisdom eyecave gave in his post, but I can think of a couple of "for real" reasons to change between climbing and rappelling. If you're the last person up, what if you just realized you left something at the bottom of the drop? Or that you dropped something, and have to go back for it?  Or you planned to climb to an intermediate level (no rebelay), and blew right past it because you were having so much fun? Down-climbing is another option, but for anything other than a short distance it can be a real pain in the butt. Possibly the single most useful reason to practice changeovers isn't to change over at all, per se. It's to better understand the mechanics of your system, and how to transfer your weight between components. Example - using a Frog system with a bobbin or short rack makes for a fairly easy up-to-down changeover. But try the same method with a full-size rack, and you could have problems. A better idea (if you have a long rack) is to place a third ascender on the rope via a short cowstail, and remove your chest (seat) ascender. Then you'll find you have a lot more room to thread the rack and transfer your weight. ;D Petzl has a few diagrams on line that show negotiating mid-rope knots and rebelays. Now these aren't exactly changeovers, but the techniques are similar. Ascending - passing an intermediate anchor en.petzl.com/petzl/SportConseils?Conseil=42Descending - passing an intermediate anchor en.petzl.com/petzl/SportConseils?Conseil=41Descending - passing a knot in the rope en.petzl.com/petzl/SportConseils?Conseil=43A final piece of advice if you're new to this stuff - find someone with some good knowledge and experience, and persuade them to spend some time with you and your system. Someone who doesn't quite *know everything* is probably best. It's amazing to find you can learn new stuff all the time if you keep an open mind - even if you've been doing it for years...  |
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Post by tncaveres on Jul 7, 2006 11:57:37 GMT -5
On Rope Is a good source for change overs. You can also go to NCRC to learn more ;D What system do you use for climbing? I use a frog for ascending & a micro rack for descending. I climb with my Mico rack hard linked in to the D-ring of my harness. That way I do not have to fumble around with clipping it in while in the air & on rope. It takes practice to find what works for you. We have 2 ropes hanging in our bay here at the station where we practice change overs . It helps when we get new people on rope too. That way there first time doing it is not in some dark pit with no other way out. |
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NZcaver
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Post by NZcaver on Jul 7, 2006 16:57:22 GMT -5
I climb with my Mico rack hard linked in to the D-ring of my harness. That way I do not have to fumble around with clipping it in while in the air & on rope. Is your micro rack linked to your harness D-ring with a carabiner or maillon - or connected directly into the D-ring? Generally, I recommend against doing the latter. If you are ever on rope and need to disconnect your descender, you won't be able to without that extra link. Two possible circumstances come to mind - removing your rack to do a fixed-brake lower during a pickoff, or removing yourself from your rack if you're rappelling and the tail of your rope somehow gets loaded (like due to a rebelay failure below you). This was discussed in detail recently, on a different forum. I use the extra link, but my descender (usually a Stop, but sometimes a rack) still stays attached ready to use all the time. To keep it out of the way, I just secure the upper end of it to the side of my harness using a small bungy cord. |
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Post by tncaveres on Jul 7, 2006 20:10:49 GMT -5
I secure it to my harness D-ring with a link just like you.
I use a beaner to hold the top it over to the side .
I have some mini bungies. Might have to try that. Good idea.
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?.......why would you wanna do that?..........i have only done that, for real, once.....here the important thing is that the safety reach above the top climbing device.....if the top climbing device is attached or can be attached to a seat harness it can be used as the safety that holds your weight when you are transfering your weight between the climb and rap devices......
