Post by Rebel Rouser on Mar 11, 2007 21:27:55 GMT -5
Munter hitch is good to know but rough on rope. Rebel
Rebel would you say it is worse on static caving rope (PMI etc) or on dynamic climbing rope? I think it is used more by climbers than by cavers but I am not very knowledgeable on the subject. I suspect with the short bend radius of rope used with this hitch that caving rope would not work as well as dynamic rope would. Just a guess though..
Definitely more difficult with static line for the reason you suggest. The use of the Munter is rough on rope because of the nylon on nylon situation. A good hitch to know as back-up but there are too many less damaging techniques or should I say devices. Rebel
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 31, 2006 23:20:59 GMT -5
Doesn't sound like Happy is "trying to prove" anything. I don't think he is trying to "puff cavers" by saying cavers revolutionized vertical caving. You have to admit nobody knows vertical caving like cavers, especially vertical cavers! ;D I think Happy was just trying to point to the link between big wall rappelling and caving. I don't see any ego stroking in his posts. Technique applied in SRT/ deep pit/big wall rappelling came from many different disciplines and was honed/perfected to the usage seen today by cavers, primarily TAG cavers. Yes, others participated but the majority were TAG cavers. This is not pomp or circumstance,just fact. It would be my guess that some Phoenician sailor figured out how to slide down a rope before a well digger did. Rebel
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 27, 2006 19:20:52 GMT -5
"The same should apply to caver education, particularly that involving vertical skills".
Tell that to the Thor '06 crew.
"As for your voter education - well, I won't touch that one with a barge pole..."
The topic is the relation of big wall rappelling to caving. I don't get the thread drift into how scary it is. It's pretty much 'cut and dried'. Bad technique can kill you! This is the vertical section so it is a given that the topics might involve height and rope work. Any assertion that big wall rappellers have an unhealthy disrespect of height is ludicrous. Rebel
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 27, 2006 13:26:26 GMT -5
"I've never met anyone who wanted to rappel or ascend in a car. (Except miners in mancars, of course.)"
Just to clear this up a bit............ what I was getting at is that it is most likely more dangerous on the road to the cave than on rope in the cave. Your "risky behavior" message would be better spent on educating drivers to drive and voters to vote. SRT is far less risky than many things we participate in. Rebel
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 26, 2006 13:39:47 GMT -5
"If you don't understand that 98% of the world thinks climbing/rappelling is risky behavior, I'm not sure I can enlighten you."
Well, I would guess that more than half the world is nuts from the get-go. I'm more worried about who's driving and voting than rappelling. You probably would not make a good spokesperson in regard to SRT.
"If a person doesn't have some rational comprehension that putting your life on a rope is risky behavior, and that exposed heights are to be respected as potentially dangerous, I'm not sure they should either be on rope, or around me."
Don't exactly know where you are going with that. As I mentioned above you might save more lives if you hit the drivers with the last message. Sounds like you have some irrational fear of heights you want to project on others. Ten feet is plenty enough to kill a person. I don't get the "around me" part but I'm pretty sure no one here will worry about your proximity when they are doing vertical work. Rebel
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 25, 2006 22:05:13 GMT -5
"You might get away with "TAG IS SRT" - but by claiming the other you're simply deluding yourself."
What other... I'm confused?
"There's a lot more to the evolution and continuing development of Single Rope Techniques than JUST the TAG caving region of the US"
Never said TAG was ALL there was. Technique and equipment has been developed all over the world. TAG is where SRT got going in a big way. Climbers rappel, arborists rappel, cavers rappel and there are others. Cavers took the art of descent and ascent and turned the rope into the "nylon highway". No sport has evolved ascending and descending technique as applied in big drop SRT to the art it is today more than caving,TAG caving.
Perhaps in the "claiming the other" you refer to the NSS and SRT? If you want to leave TAG out of the NSS then I'll agree. If you start caving in TAG then you find out quickly that you must employ vertical skills to reach much of TAG underground. Taggers honed their skills underground to 600' and then set their sights on the longest drops available. These drops happened to be above ground but gravity was in full effect. We plan on finding mile deep drops in caves but it may take awhile. Now THAT might be a delusion. ;D "And before you ask - yes, I have been vertical caving in TAG. Have you been vertical caving in New Zealand?"
No, never been to New Zealand. Vertical caving big there?
"I should probably add that I'm an NSS member who lives and caves in the US, and I'm currently just back visiting NZ"
Where you are from is really a moot point in this discussion. The "not surprised from a NZ caver" was a cheap shot.
"It may scare you to know that I regularly train US cavers (and others) in vertical caving and cave rescue techniques."
I don't know....it might ;D but hey you aren't training my kids and I don't get involved with rescue like I used too. Good luck with that!
"And regarding your geography question - I suggest you visit your local library and obtain an atlas. (It's the big book with all the pretty countries mapped out in it.)"
If it was not one of the bright colored countries then I will not remember it. Rebel
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 24, 2006 20:55:07 GMT -5
"I'm in Missouri, and quite frankly, I had the same question. Nuff of our people go to TAG and Mexico, but I think the connection is the risky behavior involved, and lack of fear of heights."
You did say Missouri. I said TennesseeAlabamaGeorgia. I'm surprised that there are quite a few practicing SRT that are unaware of its origins. I don't understand the "risky behavior involved" part of your post. As far as "lack of fear of heights" goes I don't believe I've met the caver that could out do a climber. Dan Osman,RIP, comes to mind. The first time I rappelled El Cap a young lad topped out guiding a party up the nose. He came over and inquired if our rope went to the valley floor. I said yes. He then asked if he could rappel our rope rather than have to descend the east ledges. I told him he needed one of these (holding up a rack) and that none of us was going to lend him ours. Deterred he then proceeded to load two haul bags with lightweight stuff,clothes/sleeping bags and loosely tie the bag closed. No one else paid much attention but as I had done some climbing I was aware of what was about to happen next. The young climber grabbed the two haul bags and walked over to the edge at our rig point. He then stood on a slab that sloped 20 degrees into the void, planted his feet leaning toward the abyss and swung the haul bags over the edge. All this caught the cavers by surprise and I think most were sure the climber was about to commit suicide. ;D The climber let go of the bags and I watched as the load sailed back and forth across our line a couple of times only to slam down 10' in front of four climbers waiting to start a route. Of course, throwing haul bags is illegal now. There was also the time some caver/climber/hillbillys attacked the valley with some extra long climbing ropes (270') and were wowing the locals with 120' falls. The locals had the audacity to ask the rednecks if they were scared of falling. The reds showed 'em! I think Osman cranked up sometime after that........coincidence ? I say climbers got cavers beat in the no fear of height dept. Perhaps it's all in control and not really a question of fear or a lack thereof. Rebel
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 24, 2006 2:19:46 GMT -5
Vertical Bill....he's a character! I moved some big rock to open a pit above Sherwood many years back. I excitedly rapped to the bottom (40'+) only to find the number 2177 on the wall. Dammit Bill. I've been here, just lurking waiting for someone to dangle their toes in the water. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, Happy and all the posters/lurkers out there! Rebel
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 19, 2006 13:02:58 GMT -5
When I say 'sophisticated" I'm referring to complexity in operation. I am not very familiar with the petzl ID but it is probably very similar to the grigri in function. The most difficulty is in proper threading of rope through device. I guess you could use the ID or a grigri for ascension but I would think a couple of handled ascenders would be much faster and easier to use. IMHO the rack is the most complicated to use. Kent
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 18, 2006 18:40:58 GMT -5
A figure 8 may do the trick but you might want to stay away from static lines and use a dynamic rope with it. Figure 8 does not like stiff static ropes. I use a stop descender for shorter static line drops and to have automatic stopping ability.(no need to lock off) Sounds like a rack would be a bit much for what you want to do. The rack is definitely the most sophisticated of the devices mentioned. I'm going to state the obvious and say get proper instruction with any descending device. I'll bet it is hard to rappel with a petzl ascender! Kent
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 13, 2006 22:13:54 GMT -5
Happy, I would not worry much about Rebel's ideas on rappelling. I would concentrate on safe technique and judging by your posts you do that. I'm glad you think about the circumstances involved in Mr Moore's death. He paid the ultimate price for that lesson and you will learn it and pass it on thus perhaps saving future fatalities. I would venture saying that you and I would agree on more things than we would disagree on. Please don't remove anything on my account. Nothing here has offended me as I welcome ALL views and opinions. I think I've blurted out my passions a time or two myself. I know ..some of you right now are thinking more like every post! Anyway, keep posting,Happy, I'm interested in hearing your opinions. Kent
Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 12, 2006 1:46:08 GMT -5
"Some guys who had done El cap before said that they used 4 bars and had to do leg wraps to stop at the bottom"
No problem, just stop and add a bar xxx feet off the ground. Worked for me.
"No one really had an answer so we were moving into unknown territory where people were using spacers on big drops but were not adding bars."
Just who were you asking? As I said, why not add a bar?
"On our trip we found the answer to this question not to be a laughing matter."
How high off the ground did that come to you?
"A spacer on a 1000' drop may not be necessary but on a 2000' drop , you better think again."
Since you double posted here and in the spacer thread I'll assume that is the reason for the 1000' referral above. I picked 1000 feet to try and get as many responses as possible with big rappels. I could have upped the ante with a really impressive number but the club that has experienced those heights is small indeed. I have thought quite a bit about it and I'm saying I did Thor without spacers, El Cap without spacers,twice and Half Dome without spacers. So you might see where I would question those that say one must use spacers on the really big drops. I also question your title " Spacers should not be a matter of debate". Who's in charge and when did they decide?
"One member of our expidition went over with the rope weight and 3 bars. when he got all of his weight on the rope he couldnt slow himself because of the spacers and he died to make a long story short."
Interesting.......I talked to the man supposedly standing just above Mr Moore and his recollection was that Mr Moore was on 4 bars at the time. The gentleman turned to retrieve a camera to hand to Moore and said when he turned back Moore was in a rapid (uncontrolled) descent. I also heard that his rappel device was found on rope with 4 bars engaged. BTW....have you heard of the "4 bar rule"? Any info you can add about Mr Moore's rappel would be appreciated. Oh yeah, sometime after Mr Moore's death I was involved in a rappel on El Cap and I decided to experiment with my rack and maintain an out of control rappel. I rappelled the same way Mr Moore did except I had no spacers. Bottom line is that without spacers I could not maintain free fall without manipulating bars with my hands. Once I let go of the rack I would eventually come to a stop. I do agree with one thing you said in your post. Spacers were a direct cause of death for Mr Moore. Kent