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Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 13, 2006 0:24:25 GMT -5
mcgreagors deeeeevice (that tommy almost threw him off the cliff because of). Ahhh the memories!! ;D ;D ;D Check with the N. Ga.Redneck. Smokey's got a device he's used before on highlines. kent BTW, I was figuring about 1800' off the diving board on Half Dome
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 12, 2006 17:48:56 GMT -5
Sara Corrie could tell you about squeeze brakes if she was still around. Marmex (trade name) made one that Smokey tried in the superdome. It gave him a nasty third degree burn from a slow descent. They are IMHO VERY dangerous and the icing is that they also damage rope! "Liquid cooled rack" ;D ;D ;D I have personally seen some yankees hosing their racks down at New river! LOL!! kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 8, 2006 23:40:49 GMT -5
We used the entire "free drop" at Thor in '82 (3325'). Maybe 20' max could be had by moving rig. However, you do have a long talus slope with some slab thrown in below. So the only way one can get a "longer rappel" is to resort to pulling the rope out from the base, what I would refer to as a highline. I will say that if this interpretation stands then many drops as we know them could be lengthened. Some maybe many times over! Me....I think it's just an inner ear problem....you know ...balance and which way is up type stuff! ;D kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 5, 2006 17:30:23 GMT -5
to add a bar during an out of control rap.....or to add a bar without stopping.........jam the lowest bar as high as you can...on a non weighted rope you fling the rope over whichever hip will cause the rope to contact the bottom bar the best (could be the opposite side)....turn loose of the rope with your right hand and engage the next bar........... if its a weighted rope then you twist your body so the rope is sliding over the left or right thigh (depending on which direction the bar is clipping in on......clip the bar in as low on the rack as possible........make sure you use your hip to push the sliding rope across the bottom bar currently engaged.......once you have the bar clipped in you slide that sucker up and voila......control is established or CRAP ya gotta do it again!!..you can get burned a little but it really ain't hard to do once you get the idea......... Wow! I can vaguely envision doing that on a shorter drop but on everything big I've done I think it might hurt! On the big ones I run the rope between my legs and not over my thigh. I also pretty much never add a bar while moving. I would be hesitant to advocate the possibilities of adding bars while on the move and would only feel comfortable if I had performed this several times under many conditions. I also perceive problems on big drops especially if the rope is tensioned from below. Do many rappers add bars on the move? kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 5, 2006 8:58:31 GMT -5
."....why did he not add a bar as he fell for 2000 feet?...." You ever tried to add a bar in the middle of a fast rap? You ain't gonna do it! "...why did he leave phys;ical evidence on the rope in four places (blood) where he was trying to apply hand or hip or leg friction to the point he did?.." Cause he knew he was in trouble and was desperately trying to stop! ".....when he hit the wall at -2000 feet the indications of friction application via hand, hip or leg friction disappeared.............................................does that sound like he was trying to add bars as a primary way of stopping?.." Again, I think you are mistaken when you think that you could add a bar in flight. I've never been able to. You are basically stuck with the bars you have on at the moment. ."..maybe....but; what if he was one of a group of people out there who still don't realize that the primary control of their descent on the rope is thru the left hand...............................my reason for posting that survey was that sir............there are still a few old vertical diinosaur cavers who train new vertical people to use their gloved right hand and hip in primarily controlling their descent instread of the bars and the left hand.....".. I still ain't buying that he held his rack open to impact with his hand. Once again with what I observed on El Cap with my rack was that if he had 4 bars and NO spacers he would have greatly slowed his fall especially after losing consciousness and letting go. "i am trying to point out a problem with rapping kent..." And all this time I thought you were just harassing me! ... "......spacers are not even being considered...." So no affect from them at all? I'm definitely on a different road than you! ;D ".......goodness gracious.....your hatred of spacers iz sooooo very evident kent......i only can hope that the yang in your life brings love to the same degree sir........." kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 5, 2006 8:33:03 GMT -5
...though .....i certainly regret evidencing publically such a high level committment to the memory of the war of northern aggression while being mislead by someone not willing to evidence the same committment....darn.....sigh.............shucks ya'll....... You will have to pardon me but I read the previous statement several times and still can't understand exactly what you are talking about. Could you please elaborate for me? I take it that you mean that you hate publicly talking about the late unpleasantness and that one of us is committed to the memory of said war....me or you? Lastly, one of us (I'm thinking you are referring to me now) is not willing to "evidence the same commitment" and I'm misleading folk? Help me out here! ;D kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 4, 2006 23:50:51 GMT -5
the willie wallace i was referrin' to was the son of abraham lincoln....willie wallace lincoln........he died while lincoln was in office...........i thought you was a reb?...... I had to google Willie Wallace Lincoln. Ya can't make this up! THE William Wallace was probably rolling in his grave over that name choice. Kind of ironic! I'm referring to William Wallace of Scotland. Remember a movie called 'Braveheart'? Any other Willie Wallace is a poser! This Yankee Rebel thing goes way back. I thought YOU were a reb! ;D kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 4, 2006 20:33:30 GMT -5
Discussion is good. Sometimes even spirited discussion is good. I would not exclude ANY opinion here. To those that would stifle discussion due to feelings....this is not play, this is real. Maybe your sport should be tennis. Heinous, foaming anti spacer idiot kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Sept 4, 2006 20:04:47 GMT -5
".on long drops i use spacers so that i don't have to adjust the bars as much as using no spacers would make you do." Huh??? ".......also, without spacers you end up using fewer bars and open the door for accidental loss of control of rap due to that.........i mean, you got 8 bars and usually never go over needing six even with spacers......" The sixth bar on my rack is for lock off or carrying loads, thats all it gets used for. Never had a use for an 8 bar rack. "when you don't use spacers on a long drop you will probably start with 4 bars.....get your body on the wrong side of the rack by shifting your weight to do something and suddenly the heavy as heck rope will shift its weight off that last bar, it drops......and suddenly you are on three bars....hope you can remember to push it up....." I'm betting when one is in a 'death dive' one will NOT have to be told to push up the bars. I'm betting that they would try that and virtually everything else they can think of to slow descent. The out of control descent from El Cap was sustained by spacers. Again, 4 bars at top of cliff and 4 bars upon arrival at base and he would have regained control especially after impacting and losing consciousness at about 1000' above base. "the death at el cap was not caused by spacers.....it was caused by training that was incorrect..." So, you are saying he held his rack open all the way to impact? I'm not buying it. "...for years the anti spacer idiots have used his rap as the whipping boy of those of us careless enough to like spacers influence on RACK CONTROLLABILITY....." Anti spacer idiots. ;D "....check out the forum on this site with a survey in it..IT IS IN THE VERTICAL SECTION...........i talk about this very subject.............the rope and the facts bear this out........the guy had grooves in his hand because he was trying to apply primary friction control with his gloved hand and hip friction instead of primary friction via bar position and number..........." How do you know he was not pushing bars up too! In my humble opinion he was trying EVERYTHING up to and including pushing up on bars, leg wraps(which evidently he could not achieve) and grooving his hands. He could not stop due to 4 bar configure AND spacers. Take away spacers ....he would stop. Oh and the Willie Wallace I was referring to was executed in the 17th century and was from no where near Ala. ;D kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Aug 31, 2006 23:53:40 GMT -5
Oh - no one really has asked the right questions, so no right answer has been given. Why bless me, you are totally correct. Where ARE my manners? OK, here we go. (I might miss a few) What is your last name? What side of the Mason- Dixon were you born on and do you presently reside on? Do you like grits? How about buttermilk? Does the name Cleburne mean anything to you? Was Josey Wales a billy yank or a johnny reb? Was Willie Wallace one of the good guys? Just a beginning but this will give us something to go on. ;D kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Aug 28, 2006 18:09:42 GMT -5
Where can we see the rest of the 400 copyrighted images? Their upcoming book. BTW, anyone besides me think that website is busier than the Kimball exit? kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Aug 25, 2006 23:32:13 GMT -5
I think I've found a reliable way to tell a decent rap artist..........if he's a cybergeezer that can't find, or see the slide show!! :'(kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Aug 23, 2006 22:35:10 GMT -5
"In any event, we have no idea what caused such a tragedy and probably never will." You have no idea but maybe you could narrow it down. I wouldn't write it off just yet. I'd say you could rule out the "having too much fun" scenario also. "You're point being? The only explanations I feel we owe are indeed, to our sponsors (and to the appropriate authorities.)" You are advertising. Anytime you advertise you are in the public eye as are your sponsors. "Again, I couldn't agree more. You should be thankful. I should be thankful. We should ALL BE THANKFUL. Thankful we are alive." I was talking about receiving info. You know something that I don't? "Others had, or have, other intentions that you may not be aware of." Is that the reason for the "we all ought too be thankful we are alive"? "What rule or law says I have to tell you or anyone else not associated with the expedition, anything about it?" In the scientific community its called 'peer review' and from what I understand is pretty much necessary for validating ones work. Look at it this way, most , if not all, the techniques involved in doing the rappel were brought about by cavers developing SRT. You think the TAG community is not interested? I personally would like to know more but then again maybe not? From everything I can gather y'all did one of the worlds shortest highlines considering height vs distance. We had a mile of rope in '82 and looked at the slope you went down. We neglected to run rope down slope......Eyecave......you remember why? My vote is for "contrived". "Freefall" or "all free" is terminology we used to use and pulling the rope out from the base was not really something we did to extend drops. We may "never know" what went wrong but its pretty much guaranteed if we ask no questions such as rack configuration (spacers perhaps?) "Again, I believe your record was broken in 1993." They broke our record, you broke our record. The statement about the RCMP simply meant that the cavers at the scene and the caver SRT knowledge available is much more apt to understand what went on during the rappel than the RCMP. "Philip was given the proper equipment and the proper instructions on its use. " Had he ever used a rack before? "There was no reason to suspect he'd have trouble." Yep, It was only a world record attempt. " He knew the risk and he accepted that risk." Kinda what I was getting at in the "wanting to use our rope" account. As advanced as they were they didn't have a clue, after all it is a totally different discipline. " We, as cavers, do that every time we go caving." Maybe, maybe not. Some questions....... Was rope tied off(tensioned) during Robinson's descent? Did he use a rack with spacers? What was the configuration? Had he ever used a rack? Of course knowing the nature of his injuries would help.I imagine the RCMP would be able to help on that end. IMHO we that participate in this sport owe it to future SRT enthusiasts to understand the tragedies as well as the triumphs. If this means asking what some deem as uncomfortable questions then so be it. Ever inquiring.......kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Aug 19, 2006 19:05:46 GMT -5
Is there any way to see the pictures without registering? Kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Aug 18, 2006 8:33:43 GMT -5
Rock climbers have always regarded the rappel to be the most hazardous part of the journey. Many climbers are killed or injured not during the climb but while on descent. I would mention my good friend Chris C. but that but that might not classify as descent related. I would go further and say that IMHO many (vertical) cavers using racks have come or will come very close to the edge with equipment and not even realize it's proximity. Any pictures of the landing area at base? How far down talus below base of wall did y'all go? Sorry to bug you but most on here won't know where "the top of the scree to about where we set the bottom bolt in '04"is located. I've been trying to find pics that show the full frontal view with entire talus slope. It would be neat to see where y'all rappelled to! ;D kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Aug 16, 2006 19:59:29 GMT -5
Please forgive us as we all have independent lives to live and have not had the heart or time to post prior to this. I am only posting now because my truck is in the shop, I can't get to work and so, I had some time on my hands plus the 'abandoner' showed up at my home last night telling me about all these posts. One team member suggested I respond. I thought about it and although I don't know the intentions of those reading these post's (who else is going to show up at a Team Thor members home in the middle of the night?) there are those reading this, like Tim White and Lynn Roebuck, who will benefit from this knowledge so I chose to submit this post. I am only one member and I was not on the mountain summit when Philip began his fateful rappel. I had completed my rappel and moved my camp to base as I was given the task of bringing the haul cord from base camp to the 'beach' the next day. I was in my tent, asleep, alone when the accident occurred. My batteries were slowly dying and I knew I'd need to communicate with the summit the next day, so my radio was turned off for the night. At the time I rappelled I was unaware that Philip was making his way up the backside and had no immediate knowledge that he was going to rappel. I did not see him rappel nor did I see his body at the accident scene at the bottom of the rope. I did help load his body into a helicopter less than 24 hours after the accident, however. If you really want to know and if I think it wise, I will answer any questions you may have privately. E-mail me at offrope@comcast.net. Don't expect instant replies however. Thank you for your patience and understanding regarding this matter. Regards, The Dirtman It is in the nature of expeditions for the public (especially the ones participating in same sport) to want to know details. Also you were attempting a record and there was a death involved. People might want to know the conditions you encountered just as y'all likely inquired of Thor '82. Supposedly our record has been broken and I would like to know more about the front side. Lastly, and certainly the most difficult to assess, understanding of what happened to Mr. Robinson. we need to glean info from the tragedies so as to prevent them in the future. Putting up a website and obtaining sponsors also puts you in the spotlight. I do understand recuperation time and I guess we ought to be thankful for what we got. I would guess that the intentions of most posters here would be interest in your expedition. Have there been people that sought others out over posts made about Thor? So the story is going to trickle out via email IF we make the cut.......like maybe don't share.... I understand getting back to the real world takes time but the questions will never go and since y'all are claiming the record then I want to know more about the rappel. I mean it is our record your breaking! So the Canadian authorities are investigating a rappelling accident? Reckon they'll figure it out? Let me tell ya......if the cavers that were there, augmented by the vertical experience hither and yon can't figure it out then I'm betting the RCMP will boge the seq, take the whip,crater and do the fish dance! (I've always wanted to write that. ;D) Robinson was supposedly an "experienced climber". That says something right there. How many "experienced cavers" are going to go out to the big stone and start working a 5.10 A5 aid route knowing little of big wall technique. What level of expertise ya guess the front of Thor would rate? More than once I've had to turn down climbers that just topped out the Salathe Wall or the Nose and wanted to use our rope as a quick way to the Mtn. Room bar. They had no idea what they were asking and we politely explained that their figure 8 would not work! The Salathe goes free at 5.13b so they did not lack climbing experience. I say all this not trying to judge but to understand and prevent. Sometimes that requires asking tough questions. kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Aug 15, 2006 23:22:46 GMT -5
Arrowsmith Smokey story ...... Smokey is first to ride in afternoon after rigging. He lands in tree 3/4 up drop due to line tensioning and ends up benighted in said tree. That was the evening that Smokey called himself on the radio. There was a long pause as everyone on the frequency waited for Smokey to answer himself. Anyway, Smokey climbs out of tree and begins a descent down short drops and scree with the occasional tree. Well, he's a natural in the woods so he has little problem dodging bears and finding his way to the staging area. Next day rope is still hung in upper branches of same tree so I hike down to tree (4th class) to free rope. Once in tree I notice the slope below. Damn! front side of tree is 500ft in the air! I follow Smokey's route only to find myself making 5.6 moves, unroped, 500ft off the deck. Not really my 'cup of tea'. I mentioned this to him later and he commented on how when a rock cut loose it sounded like it was going a long ways but it was dark and he couldn't tell exactly what was below. Smokey's the best climber I know that never climbed!
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Aug 15, 2006 20:42:17 GMT -5
In the late '80's I accompanied Smokey and others to Mt. Arrowsmith, Vancouver Island, British Columbia. We drove to a staging area approximately 6000 feet away from and below the peak of Mt Arrowsmith. At the staging area we attached the end of the rope to a helicopter. The pilot then flew the rope up and over the top of Mt Arrowsmith. He had to fly down the backside several feet so we could grab and secure the rope from the ground. Ever tether a June bug? Kind of like that, extrapolated. I don't recall the relief involved and it might be a stretch to call it a rappel. ;D I'll never forget that helicopter pilot though. He was as good as they get. Kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Aug 15, 2006 19:18:44 GMT -5
I think ........... Smokey made two 8500 footers that we wanted to stretch across Yosemite valley and they would not let us! Wonder if he might still have one?
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Aug 15, 2006 18:56:46 GMT -5
Oh, Arrowsmith was in the neighborhood of 6000'. Kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Aug 15, 2006 18:54:45 GMT -5
Tim, I come by yakkin naturally. After all I am a 'cracker'.. ;D I went to the website. Not too elaborate on the info. In fact it's downright brief. I'm just wondering how the '82 record could be beat without going down the talus slope at the BASE of Thor? It isn't like we left a lot of mtn. out . We had a mile of rope.There was some discussion of doing what the '06 crew has evidently done. I'm not sure why we nixed the idea...rock fall,contrived,etc. I guess this means a reassessment of drop lengths everywhere! I also reckon this means Smokey has the rappel record established on Mt. Arrowsmith, B.C. Questions, questions............Kent
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Aug 14, 2006 22:25:08 GMT -5
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