Caving Photos Online

[L Roebuck]

I know several cavers that have cave pictures online. Hey, why not share with the other cavers on the forum? ;D Please post the link to your website or other online photo albums like Flickr, Photobucket, SmugMug, Epson, etc, etc, so we can enjoy your photo's too!

[Brian Roebuck]

Here's a link to my Flickr site. Not much there yet..

www.flickr.com/photos/dr_beaner/

[L Roebuck]

A lot of my cave photos are on Flickr. Here's the link.

flickr.com/photos/caving/

Be Warned: Some collections are not cave related.

[Azurerana]

Hey! I've got people paying me for my photos, so they're not liable to be posted gratis online anytime soon.

I do have a word of wisdom: if you care at all about your photos, watermark them, put on a small copyright (in the image) or do something. Otherwise, they WILL be stolen wholesale. It's rather difficult to make a photo be visible online, and not able to be downloaded at will by some means, especially on places like Flickr. I've had a real estate company (and even a cave-related website) steal my photos wholesale without my permission off my website. Because of the way copyright law is (no criminal recompense, only civil recourse such as cease and desist) for even legally registered items valued at less than $999, it's a major expensive hassle to get someone willing to steal images without asking permission even to take them down at your request wtthout threatening lawsuit.

What is out there of mine is out there. But there won't be any more, unless I see some beneficial reason (beneficial to me, that is.) No more Ms. Nice Guy.

[Brian Roebuck]

Another good protective measure is to upload them in a rather small image size. Flickr automatically reduces the size if you load a large file and set it up so that only small size (or even no) images can be downloaded. Small size images aren't good for much of anything except to see how nice they would be if they could be viewed in full size. It's pretty easy to add your name to a photo these days if you like as well. The professionals that use Flickr for example give you a tiny shot to view and sell prints of the full size from it.

Truthfully most of the photos you see on these sharing sites aren't all that great (with some serious exceptions of course) and don't need to be protected. It's mostly about sharing snapshots and showing a few low resolution examples of your better photos for review by your fellow photographers or even sales of prints if you like.

[Innermostphoto]

Be careful not to get hooked up into any of those stock photography agencies. You'll be selling yourself short and the agency will be making ALL the money. AIso it is OK to put low res images on line however many of these photo hosts allow full exif images which eats up band width and is also unnecessary .

Bob Biddix
Innermost Imagery
www.innermostimagery.com

[willstang86]

Here is a link to my Deviant art website. I have a few of my cave photos here. I have only been doing cave photography for a year so I am still learning.
willstang86.deviantart.com/gallery/

[L Roebuck]

Hi Will, Welcome to the forum! Thanks for sharing your cave photo's. I have to say you are not alone - I also am currently working on cave lighting techniques.

[L Roebuck]

azurerana said:

I do have a word of wisdom: if you care at all about your photos, watermark them, put on a small copyright (in the image) or do something. Otherwise, they WILL be stolen wholesale. It's rather difficult to make a photo be visible online, and not able to be downloaded at will by some means, especially on places like Flickr. I've had a real estate company (and even a cave-related website) steal my photos wholesale without my permission off my website. Because of the way copyright law is (no criminal recompense, only civil recourse such as cease and desist) for even legally registered items valued at less than $999, it's a major expensive hassle to get someone willing to steal images without asking permission even to take them down at your request wtthout threatening lawsuit.

What is out there of mine is out there. But there won't be any more, unless I see some beneficial reason (beneficial to me, that is.) No more Ms. Nice Guy.

Yes, I have to agree - photo's online do get stolen sometimes by unscrupulous people.

Just last week I found two of my photo's on a College website ( without my permission or knowledge) and the photo credit was given to one of the College Professors!!! That's what I call.....Bad Professional Ethics.....eh?

Has anyone else had a problem with other's stealing your caving photo's that are online? If so, how do you handle the situation?

[Tony Anders]

Well, I would contact the college and tell them "this is Professor Pretzel Girl,and I was concerned that I haven't been receiving my pay checks for the last (x) years.
;D

[Brian Roebuck]

Hrrumph!

Would the name "Dr Beaner" do to impress them? Alas I digress...

Turns out they were keen to give credit where it was due and all is well. I think copywrite laws can be a source of irritation for universities etc. They have much to lose should someone pursue legal channels. It does pay to look around "teh Intarweb" for any of your photos though. You never know who gets hold of them and does what with them!

[L Roebuck]

Oh and as an FYI to anyone who is interested. About 6 months ago a couple of Flickr caving groups were created; Cavers, Caves & Caving Photo's and Life in A Cave Photo's, so caver's, cave photographer's and people who love caves could showcase their caving photo's! You guys are welcome to join the group and post photos or just check the photo's out!

Cavers, Caves & Caving

Life in A Cave

[paul snook]

;D www.flicker.com/photos/cavebull/

[Brian Roebuck]

pretzlgirl said:

Oh and as an FYI to anyone who is interested. About 6 months ago a couple of Flickr caving photo groups were created so caver's, cave photographer's and people who love caves could showcase their caving photo's! You guys are welcome to join the group or just check'em out!

Cavers, Caves & Caving

Life in A Cave

These two groups are starting to attract quite a few photographers from all over the world and of all skill levels. Some of the images are extremely good! Go take a look when you get time. It's worth it.

[Sharon Faulkner]

I took the mini tour of caving photos today, an efficient way to share photos. Good photos all!

Thanks to Lynn for setting up the Flickr cave photo groups.

[L Roebuck]

You and all the cavers are more than welcome Sharon. ;D

The group has some of the most amazing cave photgraphy as well as some very talented cave photographers. A slideshow is available at flickr.com/groups/cavers/pool/show/

Of course, everyone is more than welcome to join the group and post cave photo's and/or discuss cave photography. Here's the link: flickr.com/groups/cavers/

[L Roebuck]

Azurerana GASP!!! I NEVER would have dreamed that a Representative of the National Speleological Society would take my Photo's off Flickr (© All Rights Reserved) and not even ask permission!!
And I never would have dreamed that the National Speleological Society would turn a 'blind eye' when NSS Member Paul Snook informed them my photo's were being used on the Society's website forums.caves.org/flickr.html WITHOUT permission!!
No permission was ever requested to use my photographs so the NSS has violated the International Copyright Law.

[Azurerana]

pretzlgirl said:

Just last week I found two of my photo's on a College website ( without my permission or knowledge) and the photo credit was given to one of the College Professors!!! That's what I call.....Bad Professional Ethics.....eh?

I've got even a better one. Was at a doctoral dissertation public presentation (part of the defense which determines if the student gets the degree), as part of my required classes at a university. Walked in, as the slide show was being set up, and found one of my pictures as the OPENING slide. Didn't say anything. Watched the presentation. Two more of my pictures were used, with no credit given, not on the slides, not in the credits. This person knew me, to boot, had a reasonable expectation I would be in the audience, and had never asked permission. I could have made a big stink, (academic ethics?) but didn't. Emailed this person later. Explained the situation. Didn't go to their doctoral committee. They've been REALLY NICE to me ever since. The End.

[Azurerana]

pretzlgirl said:

Azurerana GASP!!! I NEVER would have dreamed that the National Speleological Society would take my Photo's off Flickr (© All Rights Reserved) and not even ask permission!!
And I never would have dreamed that the National Speleological Society would turn a 'blind eye' when NSS Member Paul Snook informed them my photo's were being used on the Society's website forums.caves.org/flickr.html WITHOUT permission!!
No permission was ever requested to use my photographs so the NSS has violated the International Copyright Law.

Sorry you learned this the hard way, Pretzlgirl. Did they give you any credit? I cannot find your photos on there -- 10:33, but maybe I don't know the alias to look for.

There are some convention photos I took which are online without my permission, too, but it's not worth the hassle. Once they leave your hands, they have to make their own way in the world. I'm of a mind unless someone is making money off them, they will come home to me eventually. I'm more concerned about people taking my writing -- there is very little of it online, and I'm not even tempted unless it's something I am deliberately setting free, like websites.

Now, if people are misrepresenting my stuff in print-- watch out! Basically, have you tried the cease and desist method? It works in 90% of the time.

Another example of this is Speleo Digest. Often, I am the last to know if something from one of my grotto newsletters ends up in one of those. As far as I'm concerned, they should ask before permission before printing. Some people, like Scott Fee, have. Most do not. I even had something show up attributed to someone else, and I screamed bloody murder about that. Did they remainder all those Digests? No.

I really think we need to straighten out this copyright thing, especially in cases where there is theft and no attribution, but no money changes hands. I mean, if my name is on it, and no one is making money off it, I really don't care. But copyright law is a royal mess, IMO.
No sense to it anymore since the digital age.

[Sharon Faulkner]

Lynn, that link wouldn't work for me either. Maybe someone finally listened to Paul and the "borrowed" photos have been removed from the site. Not sure why the NSS would turn a blind eye to this. The NSS may need to tell whoever the borrower is to let folks post their own photos where they want and be done with the issue. But, that may be too logical a solution.

[Brian Roebuck]

Well it seems to be gone for now. The folks in charge of digital as well as printed media at the NSS or anywhere else should be taught ethics and common decency before they are allowed to represent their organization in public. I recall being taught these things in school somewhere along the line. Some folks assume everything in the world is there for their own pleasure and convenience however. Y'all know what "to assume" makes us.... ;D It is sad that when we try to share our efforts with others that some small percent of us abuse the privilege.

While the NSS is a fine organization as a whole they rely on volunteers to perform many tasks that they do. Some of these people are tough to control as the only leverage they have is to "fire" them from a non-paying job. Of course that may be just the thing to do in this case! Thanks to everyone for the support shown to Lynn.

[L Roebuck]

Azurerana, no credit was given what-so-ever. I agree the the copyright thing does need to be addressed by the NSS and straighten out. The NSS should give credit where credit is due for photo's, articles, etc.

Hey Sharon most folks ask to "borrow" things. No one asked.

I checked - the 'Browse Flickr' button has now been removed. It was located between the 'NSS Flickr Group' button and the 'Your Profile button' on the top of the website. It said it was RANDOM but <cough> the funny thing is 285 of MY Photo's? were on it. -- I searched for other Flickr cavers photos to see how random it was and the majority of cavers I checked did not have any photo included. (?)

Random or Intentional?

Ummm.... I can't help but lean toward Intentional since just before this " illegally used photo's episode " - my photo's were on a Widgipedia that was located on "Margaret Harrison's Guide To Caving In The Colorado Rockies", coloradocaving.com. ( Yes, they were also used With Out permission. )

A big Thanks to Paul Snook for his assistance! And I wish to Thank Mark Passerby at caves.com who hosts coloradocaving.com -- for being a straight up guy and immediately removing the Widgipedia!