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Post by Brad Tipton on Dec 5, 2007 21:22:27 GMT -5
It might be prudent to contact Jim Wilbanks. I believe he is still the head of the SERA Karst Task Force project planning. He managed to get the cavers and resources together to clean up the mess at Rocky River Cave, he could certainly knock this project out.
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Post by galt on Dec 5, 2007 21:26:38 GMT -5
Lynn and Dr. Beaner:
I have not decided to place a gate on the cave, but I do want to explore the option. My first choice (as advocated by my wife) would be to try the warning signs/fence first, as you suggested, but I'm frankly not too optimistic. I do think it will take a significant amount of time to clean, and I would hate to see hard work undone in 30 minutes of spray painting. The trash, I think, I could control with monthly cleanups.
At a minimum, there is alot of profanity, symbols, etc. that I want to remove. I don't think I can listen to my nine-year old read some of the obscene graffiti again, although it comes with the territory I suppose.
The main motivation for the gate is to protect the bats and, in particular, the gray bat if it still uses the cave. I thought that the gray bat was more prevalent in the cave than it apparently is. There are hundreds of non-endangered bats who are apparently willing to put up with the hooligans. If I can confirm that the gray bat is not currently using the cave, the need for a gate would be lessened.
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Post by galt on Dec 5, 2007 21:31:53 GMT -5
Brad:
Thanks for the suggestion. If you have a telephone number, can you PM me with it?
- Mason
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Brian Roebuck
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Dec 5, 2007 21:40:29 GMT -5
It might be prudent to contact Jim Wilbanks. I believe he is still the head of the SERA Karst Task Force project planning. He managed to get the cavers and resources together to clean up the mess at Rocky River Cave, he could certainly knock this project out. Brad, The SKTF is run by a committee (board members) who decide on projects to support. The intent of the SKTF is to offer support for grottos or organizations in Karst cleanups as well as Karst Education and other efforts. The SKTF is not a team of cave cleaners in and of itself but rather a resource with special skills, experience, and equipment. If anyone needs help on a worthwhile effort such as this cave they can feel free to contact the SKTF. Maureen Handler is the present chair of the SKTF and can be contacted if support is needed at www.sktfi.org. Brian
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Post by graveleye on Dec 6, 2007 9:22:56 GMT -5
hey guys, I apologize for sounding like a decision had already been made about the gate - in my view it needs one, but it's not my decision. I've been pretty excited the past few days and have probably sounded overzealous. The reason I started asking about getting some information about the who, where, how-much about gating the cave was mainly to explore the option - as well this is an area I am not familiar with.
That cave I help manage was fenced and gated 30 years ago, and we are still experiencing occasional trespassing despite the gate, and a mile of private undeveloped property around it. These locals are tenacious. Funny how there are 400+ caves within one to one and a half hours of there, but they want to go in the one that is closed. I really don't get it.
I agree that it is a last resort measure. It was necessary in our cave and it's over a mile from the nearest road.
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Post by L Roebuck on Dec 6, 2007 11:29:23 GMT -5
Lynn and Dr. Beaner: I have not decided to place a gate on the cave, but I do want to explore the option. My first choice (as advocated by my wife) would be to try the warning signs/fence first, as you suggested, but I'm frankly not too optimistic. I do think it will take a significant amount of time to clean, and I would hate to see hard work undone in 30 minutes of spray painting. The trash, I think, I could control with monthly cleanups. At a minimum, there is alot of profanity, symbols, etc. that I want to remove. I don't think I can listen to my nine-year old read some of the obscene graffiti again, although it comes with the territory I suppose. The main motivation for the gate is to protect the bats and, in particular, the gray bat if it still uses the cave. I thought that the gray bat was more prevalent in the cave than it apparently is. There are hundreds of non-endangered bats who are apparently willing to put up with the hooligans. If I can confirm that the gray bat is not currently using the cave, the need for a gate would be lessened. Thanks for the clarification Mason. I agree it is good to explore all options and gather the needed information so you can make an educated decision. Over the years we have found that the "partiers" really do not like visits from cavers or landowners during the peak party times. Visits on Friday or Saturday night seem to have a big impact and we have found it will discourage many of the vandals and partiers who think no one visits a cave at that time. Are the bats in your cave roosting in clusters or are they by themselves?
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Post by galt on Dec 6, 2007 13:16:54 GMT -5
Lynn: I'm not sure how to define "clusters", but the bats are in the same vicinity, many of them within six inches to a foot of eachother. My assumption would be that a cluster means they are very close to eachother, which is not the case in the cave. I noticed this past weekend that some bats had dew on their fur. Graveleye asked me about this, and I think he indicated that that meant they had been hibernating for awhile. In the part of the cave where we saw most of the bats, one or two were hissing at us. I'd never heard that before, but the kids thought it was funny anyway.
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Post by graveleye on Dec 6, 2007 14:09:45 GMT -5
not being a bat-ologist, I'm on a learning curve so someone could correct me - when they're all dewed up, they've either just gone back into hibernation, or they have been in hibernation for a while? I can't remember.
Mason, if you see a "cluster" like Lynn is talking about, you'll know it immediately. They almost look like a swarm. We had a small colony of southeastern myotis (at least that's what I was told they were) who "hung" around for a few weeks last summer then moved on. It was the coolest thing to see them all bundled together... looked like a fluid boiling around up on the ceiling.
I did get your voicemail and tried to call back, but you had stepped out. I'll be in the office until 5 today if you would like to call me back.
Oh yea, I DO like the idea of showing up during the party hours. That would throw some cold water them wouldn't it? We're stalking some trespassers ourselves, but haven't figured out when they are getting in. Luckily, so far, they haven't vandalized anything - probably just curious kids.
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Post by L Roebuck on Dec 6, 2007 14:29:11 GMT -5
Lynn: I'm not sure how to define "clusters", but the bats are in the same vicinity, many of them within six inches to a foot of eachother. My assumption would be that a cluster means they are very close to eachother, which is not the case in the cave. I noticed this past weekend that some bats had dew on their fur. Graveleye asked me about this, and I think he indicated that that meant they had been hibernating for awhile. In the part of the cave where we saw most of the bats, one or two were hissing at us. I'd never heard that before, but the kids thought it was funny anyway. Ok I may not have been clear .... are the bats so tightly clustered together (shoulder to shoulder) that you could not tell how many were in the pack? I ask because the different species of bats have certain habits - so knowing if they are tightly clustered or just single bats might help us to know what species of bat it is. The pipistrelle bat is one of the most common species found in caves and will roost alone while some other bats like the gray bats (Myotis grisescens) tend to cluster tightly together. Gosh, I'm not an expert but have been around a lot of bats, biologists, etc so from your description and graveleye's photos I would guess that these just might be pipistrelles - but that's just a guess. Let me also ask did you see guano (bat poop) piles in the cave? I bet you wouldn't happen to know the temperature at the roost site? Yes the dew on the bats is condensation. I forgot where I read this but I understand that even when a bat hibernates they must wake up occasionally to drink or to urinate. It is interesting that the condensation on the bat fur and the moisture on the cave walls can provide the bat drinking water during their hibernation time and prevent dehydration. I think it is so cute when a bat, that weights just a few grams, hisses to try to protect itself and to frighten you. Here's a photo of a pipistrelle.
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Post by graveleye on Dec 6, 2007 15:20:22 GMT -5
Even though we're not experts, I definitely noted little browns and a couple of big browns in WR, and a hearty number of pips. Think back now, I have to question whether we did indeed see gray bats as they were not huddled together. But they have been reported in the area..
I like the big browns the best though because they really are BIG! (well at least compared to the other ones)
That's a cute picture - he's a real bruiser eh? Just a disclaimer though, as I'll assume whoever is holding him is probably an expert - it's definitely not a good idea to ever handle a bat unless you have good reason to do so.
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Post by itabot on Dec 6, 2007 15:26:59 GMT -5
Yes the dew on the bats is condensation. I forgot where I read this but I understand that even when a bat hibernates they must wake up occasionally to drink or to urinate. It is interesting that the condensation on the bat fur and the moisture on the cave walls can provide the bat drinking water during their hibernation time and prevent dehydration. I just asked a wildlife biologist about this a couple of weeks ago. I saw a bat in a cave in Colorado recently that had condensation on it. The condensation had actually started to freeze. I figured thier body heat would prevent this, but that's not the case. I was told the ice helps to insulate them in cold climates.
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Post by L Roebuck on Dec 6, 2007 19:04:13 GMT -5
Well I guess it wouldn't hurt to monitor the cave during winter and summer months to double check for any clustering bats. Yeap you are right graveleye - it is never wise to handle a wild animal. The person in the photo was an expert, a zoologist and he was up-to-date on his rabies booster shots. That day we checked out a large colony of bats that were roosting in a church and of course the zoologist had to harp net so he could identify the species. I don't know why but the condensation on the bats kind of reminds me of Dr. Beaner's beard on a cold winter day.
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Post by galt on Dec 6, 2007 21:04:23 GMT -5
Lynn:
The bats were not clustered. I'll look for the guano. New word for me. The kids will love it. I haven't checked the temperature yet, but if I remember a thermometer the next time I'm there, I will check and let you know.
BTW: thanks for the photos.
- Mason
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Post by L Roebuck on Dec 7, 2007 10:00:50 GMT -5
Your more than welcome for the photos. And that package is in the mail today. Hehe...kids always love the word guano. Coprolite is another favorite word of children. Since you both say the bats were not clustered then looking for guano piles could at least indicate if any colonial bats have ever roosted in the cave. Ceiling stains are another thing thats useful when looking at a cave that might have been used historically by bats. Certain bats like it to be a certain temperature when they roost. Hibernating gray bats seem to prefer cold-air traps that are about 42-55 degrees - while maternity colonies (summer) seem to like the temperature to be 58-77 degrees. Momma bats like their nursery warm for those baby bats (pups)! So if we can get a temperature reading that will be useful. Plus the kids will probably love to help you look for the guano! Have fun!
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Post by galt on Dec 10, 2007 14:09:34 GMT -5
Lynn:
I received the packet today, and thank you. I'll send you a PM or telephone you soon. You and this site have been most helpful.
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Post by L Roebuck on Dec 11, 2007 11:36:50 GMT -5
You're more than welcome Mason! Glad we can help! ;D
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Post by galt on Dec 13, 2007 21:36:06 GMT -5
Friends:
I need some advice on White River Cave. This week, I met with the Tax Assessors Office in an attempt to place the property into a covenant which would restrict its development for ten years (and also reduce the taxes to virtually nothing). The covenant is normally only available to property with at least 10 acres, and this property is around 9 acres.
As a result, I am having to apply for an exception to the normal requirement. The Tax Assessors were very helpful (and all were very familiar with the property). One possibility is to apply under a historical site exception. Has anyone done such a thing elsewhere? My thought is that maybe it would qualify if there are historical signatures or other historical/cultural signficance to the cave. Another thought would be to show that Native Americans used the cave (thus making it historically signficant), but I don't know how to prove that.
Any suggestions?
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Dec 13, 2007 21:46:49 GMT -5
Without a thorough review of the cave by "experts" it is hard to say if any evidence of historic or prehistoric use can be shown. Some people familiar with the cave may know more about it than I do. In any case it would take some time to look hard at the cave to find anything. We'll contact our expert friend to see if he has any information or insight on this.
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Post by madratdan on Dec 16, 2007 11:19:13 GMT -5
Friends: I need some advice on White River Cave. This week, I met with the Tax Assessors Office in an attempt to place the property into a covenant which would restrict its development for ten years (and also reduce the taxes to virtually nothing). The covenant is normally only available to property with at least 10 acres, and this property is around 9 acres. As a result, I am having to apply for an exception to the normal requirement. The Tax Assessors were very helpful (and all were very familiar with the property). One possibility is to apply under a historical site exception. Has anyone done such a thing elsewhere? My thought is that maybe it would qualify if there are historical signatures or other historical/cultural significance to the cave. Another thought would be to show that Native Americans used the cave (thus making it historically significant), but I don't know how to prove that. Any suggestions? It does sound like a study of some sorts is in order to get such a status. The best bet would be to get a college or university to study it and possibly do a dig inside the entrance area to find out if it has a prehistoric past. I wouldn't doubt for a minute if it has more than one type of past usage, being from man and/or animal. It all needs to be properly mapped and documented which would be right up the alley for an educational institute. Have you talked with the local grotto about what they know about the caves past history? I've afraid your problems with the local parters is going to be on going. You might have to set up camp or maybe a trailer down by the entrance for a while and constantly monitor the visitation. Here is something you might try........put in a guest sign-in log and find out who is going there. Make it a chalk board or a big piece of plywood painted white and have people sign it. I think a paper log would disappear too soon, but something they can't carry off might work. You might be surprised how many people will sign in. Have them leave their My space address, maybe E-mail address. Make it friendly and inviting. When they spray paint on it....just paint it white again. ;D
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sandm96
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Post by sandm96 on May 31, 2008 13:37:13 GMT -5
Hey folks. My name is Scott. I'm new to the forum, been lurking a little here and there, but this is my first post. I'm somewhat new to caving and have enjoyed all of my caving experiences thus far. Until last year, all of my caving experiences were in commercial caves: Carlsbad Caverns (many times), Mammoth Cave, Desoto Caverns, Florida Caverns, Raccoon... and a couple other. We (my wife, two sons, and myself) moved to Euharlee (between Cartersville and Taylorsville, GA) 2 years ago from Orange Beach, AL. I work in Rome and through work have gotten to know a couple of cavers, one being Rebbecca Land. She took me and my family to a couple of caves last year and we've been looking forward to more caving adventures ever since. I don't know the names of the caves that she took us to, one was off of the interstate just west of Chattanooga (I believe it's S. Pittsburgh), then she took us to some guy's property who has like 7 or 8 caves on it and we did a cool cave that was a bit vertical at first, followed by a long stretch on our bellies before it opened up. Anyways, I'm posting on this thread because we (me, my 2 sons, my Dad, and 2 of my nephews) just went and checked out this cave 2 days ago. My dad and 2 nephews have only been in commercial caves until now. We spent about 2 hours exploring the cave. Every one had a great time. I was totally surprised by how deep this cave went. I was also beyond surprised by how much graffiti there is in this cave. It's in places where I can't figure out how someone could get up to in order to spray. Another thing that surprised me is that way back into this cave, there is a lot of old trash... like car tires, power line like cables, and junk like that, most of it half covered with a foot or two of mud. Seems pretty obvious that this cave has flooded many times in the past and much of the mud and debris that is in it came via floods. I wasn't really posting to complain about the graffiti or the debris. I just wanted to introduce myself and report on our venture into the WR Cave. I did attempt to contact Galt via p.m. on this forum before going into the cave. I'm pretty stoked to have this cave so close to our house (about 15 minutes away). I would like to help with the upkeep and work that might be done there in the future. I agree with one of the previous posts that a caving club @ the Rockmart High School would be a good idea. Education is a powerful tool. Plus I think it would give the kids a sense of ownership and pride in being apart of something so unique and exciting. As far as our time in the cave went, it was great. My dad is a bit claustrophobic so I was concerned @ first. But most of the cave is pretty open and we were able to stand up through much of it. I get the feeling that we did miss a few rooms b/c we didn't attempt to bellie into some of the tight parts. I hope to go back with a little more time and with a more experienced caver (maybe I can get Rebbecca from work to go) and explore more of it. So that's all for now. I did take a couple of pictures on my camera phone, but with no flash, they're not much to look at. BTW, we did carry out a couple of Walmart bags full of trash when we left. I'll post more when I have more to say. Later, Scott
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Jun 3, 2008 5:30:57 GMT -5
Sounds good Scott. I am glad that you had fun and helped to clean a bit of the trash as well. Graffiti is a real problem for many caves since it can cover historic signatures or prehistoric symbols in some caves. Great care and special training are required to not destroy remaining historic or prehistoric markings when trying to remove graffiti. Sometimes it is not possible to do. Trash can always be removed and likely will help the cave environment for animals and man. If this is the same cave talked about earlier in this thread it is likely a great candidate for a clean up as well as an education tool for what not to do in caves etc. Education of young people can go a long way to help keep further damage from happening. I'm glad you are considering helping with this cave and being an environmentally conscious caver.
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Post by L Roebuck on Jun 3, 2008 7:49:07 GMT -5
Hey Scott, welcome to the forum! Graffiti and trash is a problem in many of the caves that are well known. Thanks for cleaning up some of it! Did you speak with Mason? He would probably be grateful for the offer to help.
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