States with more than 1000 caves...

[Sharon Faulkner]

A spin off from the State with no caves thread:

cavemud said:

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that every state has at least one cave. How many have 1000 or more???

I'll start...Alabama has more than 1000 caves.

[L Roebuck]

Tennessee has more than 1000 caves!

[madratdan]

If you include all the claystone caves out there.......Colorado easily has about 1000 caves. Even without them, I'd say we have over 1000 in the state.

I'm not sure if what we call a cave is what ya'll call a cave. Here, if it leads to total darkness then it's a cave. Everything else is a shelter cave. Now if you cave at night, then a shelter cave might be considered a cave. Needless to say......we do our best surveying at night.

[Tony Anders]

I think even though I haven't actually counted them or heard anyone else say, but I believe Kentucky does have more than 1000 as well.

[Brian Roebuck]

Of course y'all realize that what defines a cave in one state may not apply in the next. Overall though the states with lots of caves are fairly equal with the minimum set to about 50 feet long or so. Pits can be more vague but in TN they are a minimun of 30 feet deep.

Apples and Oranges.

[Azurerana]

Missouri
Texas
Arkansas
Indiana
Virginia
West Virginia


A cave is whatever people keeping the record define a cave as. Not even the feds define a cave as X feet long.

[Tony Anders]

What I felt a cave would be would be something like this. If you could go inside a cavern or passage and turn your light off and be in darkness or at least twilight darkness, I would consider that a cave.

However that is my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.....

[L Roebuck]

I believe Florida also has more than 1000 caves too.

Each cave survey has their own standard for what qualifies as a cave. In Tennessee the horizontal length has to be at least 50 feet. I believe an Alabama cave also has to be at least 50 feet in length to qualify as a cave. In Georgia a cave must be at least 30 feet in length. I don't know what qualifies as a cave in Missouri, Texas, Arkansas, Indiana, Virginia, West Virginia. But I would like to know.

[Tony Anders]

Kentucky Cave Law
Kentucky Revised Statues

433.871 Definitions.

As used in this chapter, the following words shall have the meanings stated unless the context requires otherwise:

(1) "Cave" means any naturally occurring void, cavity, recess, or system of interconnecting passages beneath the surface of the earth containing a black zone including natural subterranean water and drainage systems, but not including any mine, tunnel, aqueduct, or other man-made excavation, which is large enough to permit a person to enter. The term "cave" includes or is synonymous with "cavern."


This is just part of the actuall KRS about Kentucky caves

I guess Kentucky doesn't have a length or height requirement.


Feel free to read the rest of the KRS at this link
www.lrc.state.ky.us/KRS/433-00/CHAPTER.HTM

[Brian Roebuck]

Hey Tony,
Most of what we've all been talking about is how cavers in each state define a cave. The NSS has official state cave surveys which are part of the organization. They decide for each state what defines a cave. I am sure some states have laws or legal definitions of what is a cave as well. I hope they all agree though (state definition vs cave survey definition).

Confused enough yet? ;D

[Tony Anders]

Yes, very confused, ha ha, and embarrassed.
I think as I was looking Dayton Grotto or something had a copy of the state KRS on the webpage as well.

Well, I will continue to see what I can dig up.

[Brian Roebuck]

Hey don't worry about it. Learning all this stuff takes time for all of us. We are here to help if you need it. Let us know what else you find out.

[Sharon Faulkner]

I believe an Alabama cave also has to be at least 50 feet in length to qualify as a cave.

Yep Lynn, you are correct, the Alabama Cave Survey (ACS) requirement is at least 50 feet to qualify as a cave, either horizontal or vertical. We call anything under 50 feet an "Interesting Karst Feature" (IKF).

[Azurerana]

pretzlgirl said:

I believe Florida also has more than 1000 caves too.

Each cave survey has their own standard for what qualifies as a cave. In Tennessee the horizontal length has to be at least 50 feet. I believe an Alabama cave also has to be at least 50 feet in length to qualify as a cave. In Georgia a cave must be at least 30 feet in length. I don't know what qualifies as a cave in Missouri, Texas, Arkansas, Indiana, Virginia, West Virginia. But I would like to know.

Yes, but it is the legal definition of a cave in a state which ultimately counts, not whatever a non-profit survey decides upon.

Here is the definition of 'cave' from the Missouri Cave Resources Protection Act:

(1) "Cave or cavern", any naturally occurring subterranean cavity
enterable by man, including, without limitation, a pit, pothole, natural well, grotto and tunnel, whether or not the opening has a natural entrance"

Very similar to Tony's Kentucky definition.

Here is the Federal definition:
(1) CAVE.-The term "cave" means any naturally occurring void, cavity,recess, or system of interconnected passages which occurs beneath the surface of the earth or within a cliff or ledge (including any cave resource therein, but not including any vug, mine, tunnel, aqueduct, or other man-made excavation) and which is large enough to permit an individual to enter, whether or not the entrance is naturally formed or man-made. Such term shall include any natural
pit, sinkhole, or other feature which is an extension of the entrance.


I have no idea how any of those other states define a cave. All I know is they all claim to have over 1000 of them.

The 'enterable' part is the most important part. Missouri has the same problem as Florida--we have large, vauclusian springs which are enterable via scuba--most do not contain air-filled chambers. They can be mapped. Some of ours have been gone into over a mile--Floridian springs like Wakulla are many miles of mapped passage. Are they caves? The divers call them caves, but most dry cavers don't. For the most part, Missouri doesn't count them in its cave list--if we did, the 6200 or whatever figure would likely go up by a couple of hundred at least. (there are about 3500 named and officially located springs (not all of them enterable, of course) in the state).

When you've got 50 years of cave survey records, it boils down to whatever someone called a cave, and can justify it by length, significance, or non-connectedness to another cave is a cave. (Several hundred caves have been removed from our list, because they turned out to be alternate names, or alternate entrances, not separate caves).

I personally would like to call little caves cavelets. They really are caves--not karst features--because they aren't sinkholes, natural bridges, natural tunnels, recession canyons, karst windows or so forth. You can crawl into the dark in them, animals use them for dens, and they have speleothems. Sounds like a cave to me.

I can think of one feature which is a karst window, a sinkhole and a cave, whose underground lake feeds a spring; numerous caves which are springs, and vice versa, and some caves which are natural tunnels.

Karst isn't a thing--it's a process!

[Azurerana]

Oh, Tony-- there are also state cave surveys, like Missouri's-- which are not part of the NSS structure, though there is some personnel overlap. The MSS had been in and out of the NSS several times that I know of in the last twenty years, and I have no clue what the situation was in the first thirty years the MSS was around. Probably the same, since the MSS has no NSS membership requirement for any of its IOs, or board directors, or officers in its constitution.

The MSS (a private, 501(c)3 scientific non-profit) has an official articles of cooperation/MOU with the state geological survey and has had a relationship with them for the 50 years of its existence.
It flits in an out of relationships with other state and federal agencies, but the connection to the state geological survey is strong.

So, even though its not an NSS survey it is by no means a fly-by-night here today/gone tomorrow corporation.

[Brian Roebuck]

AZ said: "Yes, but it is the legal definition of a cave in a state which ultimately counts, not whatever a non-profit survey decides upon."

Counts for whom? If the state of Tennessee told me via statute or definition that the space beneath my house was a cave I could care less. No offense AZ but I really could care less what governments define as caves (unless it is related to actually forcing them to protect one from being abused by state or private entities).

I think cavers create a reasonable definition for their area and stick to it. It is interesting Missouri has a non affiliated state survey that shares data with the state. That may be a good or bad thing depending on how those data are used by the state. In Tennessee I would rather the state NOT have access to the TCS database. I've seen too much abuse of that privilege.

So Tony - the world is a lot more complex than I make it out to be and I am somewhat ignorant of how it all works. That's after caving more many years. We all have a lot to learn!

[Azurerana]

drbeaner said:

It is interesting Missouri has a non affiliated state survey that shares data with the state. That may be a good or bad thing depending on how those data are used by the state.

It's just one state agency, and the system has worked pretty well for a really long time, because it was set up by a caver, Jerry Vineyard, who worked for them, eventually rising to deputy state geologist. He's been retired for 10 years now, and the system is still working, because we've always had cavers, or geologists interested in caves, on the inside to enforce the cooperative agreement to the mutual benefit of both parties, as well as a few persistently stubborn folk outside watching out for the caver's interests.

There have been a few sticky times with secondary agencies, but usually only when extremists (pro development or pro preservation) have gotten involved, and they have been edured and weathered.

If the cavers were to create a state survey here from scratch today, things would likely be done differently--but folks have to remember when this was set up, basically the only people who had computers were IBM, the military, the feds and state government. Most universities still did data processing by hand, and punch cards were a radical new idea. Everything was done with pencil, paper, mylar and ink, publications were done by ditto machine, research and filing were done on index cards and the cost of a long-distance phone call was enormous. The state provided a neutral storage location, aid in drafting and reprographics, and the cavers provided the data. If your data processing equipment is a pencil, paper, a full-key mechanical adding machine and a manual typewriter, you're grateful for any professional assistance you can get!

Although there are cavers who won't contribute to the cave files because "the state" might get hold of their data, there is much more angst about the NSS getting hold of it. Keeping everything here keeps peer pressure fully in force, too.

[Brian Roebuck]

It sounds like y'all have it worked out well there in Missouri for now and that is a good thing. I am unsure if the NSS gets all the affiliated cave survey data or not but if they do I fear they will share it with other agencies in state and federal governments. While some of these agencies will likely use the information to protect caves others may use it for less ethical means. I guess we have to do what we can to protect the caves close to us. As cavers that is our duty.

[L Roebuck]

drbeaner said:

I am unsure if the NSS gets all the affiliated cave survey data or not but if they do I fear they will share it with other agencies in state and federal governments..

Yes, the NSS has the Cave Files Committee which is under the Operations Vice President. You can read more concerning the cave files in Appendix N, NSS Cave Files Policy and the yearly BOG Reports.

[madratdan]

Our state cave survey group does more managing of caves and working on access with the BLM and USFS, then it does collecting cave surveys and locations. Does this seem normal?

[Brian Roebuck]

madratdan said:

Our state cave survey group does more managing of caves and working on access with the BLM and USFS, then it does collecting cave surveys and locations. Does this seem normal?

Yeah Madrat for your neck of the woods it sounds just fine. Wouldn't fly around here though! Our surveys used to do things like have ridgewalks, etc, but now it is just a few meetings a year and of course gathering cave data submitted and compiling mapbooks and various data listings.

[Azurerana]

The Missouri survey does no cave management, and not much working on cave access except as tangential to data gathering. Theoretically, the Missouri Caves and Karst Conservancy does those things. The latter started as an arm of the MSS, however, the MSS 501(c)3 status does not allow to do the sort of direct fundraising/solicitation once envisioned for the MCKC, and they really didn't want to get into the liability issues of being a land holding conservancy, so the MCKC spun off to do these things. It still has one rep on the MSS board as an MSS I/O, but the reverse is not true.