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Post by Chad Dubuisson on May 25, 2007 14:07:57 GMT -5
Well, it appears our efforts have sparked some great discussion about some very sensitive issues, for one such as working in a Closed Cave. Everyone seems to have something to say about this, one way or another. I would say that sometimes in the caving community, people have insider information about certain things that aren't generally known to the public. For example, if a cave is on the closed cave list, but you've secured knowledge from very credible sources ;)that the cave can still be visited under certian circumstances, & you are willing to abide by and cave under those circumstances, the cave in question can be closed to most everyone, but open to you and your team. Access to many caves is by special knowledge of access arrangements or arrangements with landowners, as it should be. I'm not claiming anything necessarily here with regards to the cave in question, I'm just posting an alternate viewpoint about access, how something like working a closed cave for a year could "theoretically" happen for a team. As for the long line to come bottom the pit from this rig point, may I have this to say: The line will be a very, very short line! I would say infact that the whole line could probably go in a car or maybe in a van. Let me qualify what I mean like this. If you wish to ride to the top of the CN Tower in Toronto to see the view, you take the elevator to the top. Currently Mystery Falls is easy to do like this. But, what if the elevator was out & the staff said, "yeah, you can go up to the top to see the view, but you'll have to crawl up & down the stairs both ways today," how many people would still be making the trip? That puts it in perspective nicely I think. There just aren't that many people lining up to do this kind of cave, I've looked for over a year now. Asked many, found few. There's nothing left to scope in this cave anymore at this point anyways. A powerful mapping effort was led by the original explorers, but the head mapper has decided not to publish his map. Apparently, he's never been "asked" to publish it, so he sits on the data in Knoxville. Our team has made some recent significant discoveries that we have already explored for the most part, now it's a matter of survey. After much discussion about the matter, our team plans to begin our own survey in spite of him. This is a great cave & it deserves a real map. We will infact be writing up an article at some point, I know Mike has begun keeping track of our efforts in the last few months & so we will be talking about it eventually. One day, we will be doing a presentation to the DCG on our efforts, complete with pictures, accounts of the traverse, the tyrolean, our new explorations & hopefully by then, a map to link it all together.
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Post by Mike Green on May 25, 2007 15:28:44 GMT -5
We were in a closed cave? Haahaahaa! (please refer to my avatar)
Have a good weekend haters and cavers!
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Post by Brad Tipton on May 27, 2007 2:46:43 GMT -5
Congrats Chad. Let me know what your depth tallies up to.
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Post by tncaveres on May 27, 2007 8:00:02 GMT -5
Verticaver is right. Just because the cave is on the closed list don't mean it is not open to responsible cavers. I have permission to 2 caves that are on the closed cave list because of good landowner relationship.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on May 27, 2007 8:12:40 GMT -5
Yeap I agree that just because the cave is on the closed list doesn't mean it is not open to responsible cavers. Be good to your landowners and they will be good to you! ;D
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Post by Rebel Rouser on May 28, 2007 17:28:18 GMT -5
What is the reason for DKSH being on the closed cave list.?
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Post by Brad Tipton on May 28, 2007 21:21:15 GMT -5
The owners are upset with the overall abuse of their property along Jewett Road. Locals are to blame for the trash and damage all along the road. I am not sure if the owners are aware that cavers are not the problem. Despite the efforts of cavers in the recent past to convince the owners that we could help them manage access and clean up their land. I still don't think they are convinced....... I do believe it is an ongoing effort by some in the community to eventually get the whole area open to cavers again. The land in question is owned by the same people who own RTTM and many other Brady Mtn caves.
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Post by Chad Dubuisson on May 28, 2007 21:35:46 GMT -5
''What is the reason for DKSH being on the closed cave list.? " Well, a couple of things I do know about the Smokehole. For one, the historical entrance was blocked shut last time I saw it. So unless your willing to pull the boulders out that someone has rolled into the entrance hole, that side of it is permanently closed for now. As for why it's on the list, I can't be too sure. I've driven up & down the road many times in previous years, never had a problem. But, I do know of a guy who was there doing Serendipity when he says someone showed up with a shotgun & started shooting it off, not sure if it was into the pit or not, but it sounded pretty scary. I think my friend & his pals were crouching in the bushes nearby, watching these guys yell down into the pit, down the rope. I do know that the land owner lives down at the end of the road, in a house near a small lake. He doesn't like visitors I've heard. He's had many problems with people trying to grow pot on his land, as he's had many government raids on his land for such crap. So, needless to say, he doesn't really like people. He's admitted that he's never really had a problem with cavers in particular, but he just really doesn't like anyone on his land. So, the general word has been, as it should, to stay off his land. This general word led to it being put on the CC list to try to preserve land owner relationships where they stood, before they deteriorated further. It worked. There are no longer huge convoys of cavers parked getting naked on every weekend up & down the j road. Now, it's down to 2-3 cars once every few months.
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Brian Roebuck
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Post by Brian Roebuck on May 29, 2007 5:47:47 GMT -5
Well that sounds reasonable for the owner as well as cavers for now. Things always change and sooner or later access will change as well one way or the other. Everyone needs to heed the wishes of the landowners. They could end up selling to an organization that then sells to the state and the land could be closed off more permanently. Or worse it might turn into a neighborhood with hundreds of landowners to deal with, people closing the holes to keep kids out, and all sorts of stuff.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on May 29, 2007 8:13:06 GMT -5
The owners are upset with the overall abuse of their property along Jewett Road. Locals are to blame for the trash and damage all along the road. I am not sure if the owners are aware that caver's are not the problem. Hey Brad do you think if caver's went out and lent the landowner a hand to clean up the trash along the road -- it would help relations? With the landowner's permission - of course.
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Post by Trey on May 29, 2007 15:57:58 GMT -5
Wow, so the only way in now is the Yuppie boating entrance. We dug that open in one day. Good times. A rock the size of a basketball fell 2 feet onto Jack Wheat's head and shoulders. He roared and flung it in the air like it was a pillow.
Trey
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Post by Sharon Faulkner on May 29, 2007 21:56:24 GMT -5
A powerful mapping effort was led by the original explorers, but the head mapper has decided not to publish his map. Apparently, he's never been "asked" to publish it, so he sits on the data in Knoxville. That's the same story I heard when I asked about a map of the cave. So next time I saw the head mapper out I asked him about it and yes, he said he didn't know anyone wanted a map and he'd never been asked. So I told him I was asking him to publish the map. That was in 2001...guess he hasn't had time to publish it yet. ;D After much discussion about the matter, our team plans to begin our own survey in spite of him. This is a great cave & it deserves a real map. Exactly...every cave deserves a map, regardless of size. People can't/won't conserve what they don't know is underground. A map helps them visualize what is there. Glad to see you guys are taking the initiative on re-surveying the cave and publishing a map.
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Post by Sharon Faulkner on May 29, 2007 22:05:36 GMT -5
Wow, so the only way in now is the Yuppie boating entrance. We dug that open in one day. Good times. Hey Trey, I remember hearing the tale of how the Yuppie Boating entrance name came to be, but I bet everyone on the forum hasn't. Would you like to tell the story?
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Post by Brad Tipton on May 29, 2007 22:26:27 GMT -5
I know Buddy Lane has worked with the owners for many, many years to try to convince them to let the caving community help police the area. They are an elderly couple who from my understanding are afraid of the local yahoos and don't want to create a stir. I think at one time Buddy told me that he and some others did some investigating into who was dumping along the Jewett Road and proposed to the owners to volunteer the information gathered to the authorities for prosecution. I believe that Buddy said they didn't want to press charges for fear of retaliation.
Of course trying to gain the trust of the landowner through organized clean ups could show the owners that organized cavers have power in numbers. A good showing could convince them to work with us to take care of their resource. You never know.
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Post by Brad Tipton on May 29, 2007 22:33:06 GMT -5
I guess I should leave this note
Serendipity and Nirvana are not owned by the same landowners as DKSH.
The owners of Serendipity and Nirvana have been known to get hostile. I do not know any more than that. I don't want people to think that since they are close to one another that they are owned by the same landowners. They are not
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Post by Trey on May 30, 2007 6:55:00 GMT -5
The Yuppie boating entrance started out as a hole the size of a grapefruit... with TONS of air. There were several of us digging that day. Chuck Manglesdorf (a lawyer) and Ian Jones (soon to be doctor) were along to help. Everyone was exciting as the dig took shape. As afternoon set in, it looked as though we were getting nowhere. Chuck and Ian were going out on the lake with their girlfriends the next day, so Chuck stood up and announced " We will never get in today, Ian and I are going boating with the babes". They left the mountain, and we kept digging. That evening as the sun was wavering, we broke through, and got a person in to the lip of the first pit. We laughed at what Chuck had proclaimed, and named it after the two yuppies who did not believe. Trey
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Post by L Roebuck on May 30, 2007 9:59:33 GMT -5
Of course trying to gain the trust of the landowner through organized clean ups could show the owners that organized cavers have power in numbers. A good showing could convince them to work with us to take care of their resource. You never know. It would just be nice if more landowner knew Cavers Care about the karst environment. The best way that I know to do that is by being a good neighbor and helping them out. Hey Brad, if you are planning to be at SERA maybe we could talk more? The Yuppie boating entrance started out as a hole the size of a grapefruit... with TONS of air. There were several of us digging that day. Chuck Manglesdorf (a lawyer) and Ian Jones (soon to be doctor) were along to help. Everyone was exciting as the dig took shape. As afternoon set in, it looked as though we were getting nowhere. Chuck and Ian were going out on the lake with their girlfriends the next day, so Chuck stood up and announced " We will never get in today, Ian and I are going boating with the babes". They left the mountain, and we kept digging. That evening as the sun was wavering, we broke through, and got a person in to the lip of the first pit. We laughed at what Chuck had proclaimed, and named it after the two yuppies who did not believe. Trey I have heard the Yuppie boating entrance tale many times and enjoy it each time it is told! ;D Good job on the dig Trey! But who else stayed to help dig?
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Post by Brad Tipton on May 30, 2007 15:03:11 GMT -5
Lynn, I don't figure to be there since I just returned from vacation in California. Maybe I could catch you and the Dr for some caving sometime. I have been getting more familiar with Middle TN caves in the last year since we moved further north. I figured I would give Notheast AL a break for a while.
I will ask Buddy more specifics about the landowners and the Brady Mtn area that is closed to cavers. The area is a goldmine for deep, multidrop caves and it is a shame that access is limited. A little goodwill towards the landowners could sway them to reconsider their stance towards caving on their property.
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L Roebuck
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Post by L Roebuck on May 30, 2007 18:11:58 GMT -5
Well heck -- if I had just returned from caving and mountain climbing in California I probably wouldn't go to SERA either. I need to stop by the SCCi Booth anyway so I may try to chat with Buddy a bit this weekend and get back to you. ok?
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Post by Sharon Faulkner on May 30, 2007 18:21:23 GMT -5
Thanks Trey for sharing the story. These little tid bits of TAG caving history need to be retold and passed on to future generations of cavers yet to come. Maybe Mike Rogers will write that book of exploration tales yet.
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Post by Mike Green on Aug 20, 2007 8:41:01 GMT -5
On Saturday I returned to the pit to measure it with a piece of string. All went well until I began climbing out, and I got hopelessly tangled. There were points where I was lifting 200'+ of rope by the cord itself in effort to separate the two. <blah> After about 30 minutes, I was back to the top with my measurement. Move over Mystery Falls because we've go a 285' In addition to measuring the pit, our team has begun the survey of the cave in its entirety. Should take a while, but there will be more to come.
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Post by Tim White on Aug 20, 2007 10:43:17 GMT -5
Congrats on the deep one! Can you give us some details on how you plumbed the pit with the string?
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