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Post by jonsdigs on Dec 29, 2006 17:46:41 GMT -5
On another forum I read an article giving the link to a database to hundreds of the archaeological cave sites in a country. To cavers in America this is shocking. However, we seldom think outside our context to consider the perspective of other cultures.
Countries who have poor communication resources may not even take the issue in consideration. Perhaps caves being a local resource be it for guano, birds nest collecting, or for guiding tourists may give a different take. Of course they may have their own reasons for discretion such as contraband storage, refuge against persecution or it being a sacred site. How about Osama and his supposed cave refuge? Inquiring minds...
What do you think?
-Jon
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Post by Sharon Faulkner on Dec 29, 2006 19:21:11 GMT -5
On another forum I read an article giving the link to a database to hundreds of the archaeological cave sites in a country. To cavers in America this is shocking. However, we seldom think outside our context to consider the perspective of other cultures.
-Jon ;D Yes, there is a sense of irony in where the article is posted and the poster. ;D One of the moderators here also found that news report while surfing the net and posted it in the mods section for discussion. The general consensus was that while the report contained good information that may be of interest to the cave community, it also gave locations to significant caves or archaeological sites (albeit in another country). In order to practice consistency among forum users it was decided the moderator should not post the article. It is felt the moderators should be expected to follow the same guidelines as any other forum users. I think keeping cave locations secret is more or less a U.S. thing and other countries do not commonly abide by this rule or guideline. I think we should offer guidance if another country asks for assistance in cave conservation or management strategy, but I'm not sure other countries would appreciate us trying to dictate cave policy to them otherwise. For the sake of discussion, I'm not sure that cave secrecy is or ever has been the best policy for the U.S. either. While I do not agree with wantonly posting cave locations on the Internet, I think we have left a lot of ground uncovered in the education arena when it comes to cave protection, conservation, and management. I've often wondered if we'd have been ahead of the game now if as much energy had been put toward educating each generation about cave resources as was put into cave secrecy over the last 60 years?
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Brian Roebuck
Site Admin
Caver
Caving - the one activity that really brings you to your knees!
Posts: 2,732
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Post by Brian Roebuck on Dec 29, 2006 19:38:19 GMT -5
Jon and fellow cavers, Our cave locations are not suitable for the general public. It has been proven time and again that people abuse the environment given the opportunity especially in places that are remote such as caves. Formations get removed, fragile cave life is destoyed, vandalism ensues, spraypaint covers the walls, cultural resources are destroyed or plundered, and cavers no longer regard the cave as a good place to visit. What is the point of letting people who are ill prepared to handle the cave environment, have no clue of what they might impact, and care little about damaging the "hole in the ground" know where caves are? It is best to make it hard for common folk to find caves to exploit (well at least the small percent of them that actually do). There are too many people in the world who would do caves harm. They do not need to be spoon fed location information to accomplish their grim task sooner. As cavers we owe it to nature and the caves to guard the secrets well and defend the fragile underground. If governments want to publish the location there is little we can do. Our own governments should be pressured in whatever way possible to refrain from this destructive behavior. Unfortunately the problem is only getting worse with time.
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Post by eramosakarst on Dec 30, 2006 9:14:15 GMT -5
I think keeping cave locations secret is more or less a U.S. thing and other countries do not commonly abide by this rule or guideline.
Add Canada to that mentality,sometimes perhaps even worse.
For the sake of discussion, I'm not sure that cave secrecy is or ever has been the best policy for the U.S. either. While I do not agree with wantonly posting cave locations on the Internet, I think we have left a lot of ground uncovered in the education arena when it comes to cave protection, conservation, and management. I've often wondered if we'd have been ahead of the game now if as much energy had been put toward educating each generation about cave resources as was put into cave secrecy over the last 60 years?
IMHO that is What the Brits did for example and the general public there seems to be very informed and respectful of caves and karst.Imagine local areas have books available to all for use and generally the caves are not destroyed.
I wish we had such a mindset here.Mind you as of late some of the established leaders in caving in my area (Ontario) realized building development encroachment is the biggest danger to caves.Data is being released so people can pro actively find caves BEFORE development and this cannot be done without current data. In my area)Ontario) a HUGE amount of karst education needs to happen in order for the public to get on board.
This being said I will never support mass online releasing of data and hope and less constricted data policy will work with the true gems being protected by cavers.The Ontario (Canada )government had a site with hundreds of sites posted (due to their mantra to serve the public) and fortunately they were convinced by some scientists as to how sensitive a lot of the sites were and they were taken down.
I despise people who hoard caves in the illusion they personally are protecting the cave..this IMHO has proven to be wrong and counter productive.
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Post by Azurerana on Dec 30, 2006 17:36:18 GMT -5
A similar thing happened in the United States.. What happened was: all caves in the government database were posted online with locations. Cave locations on federal land are *only* protected by the FCRPA if they are deemed to be 'significant' caves under the terms of the Act. Some agencies (NPS) consider all caves significant; others (USFS) do not. It would have been a constant and ongoing task to sort out which caves were significant and which were not. Also, the FCRPA does not address the handling of secrecy/not secrecy of distributing of cave locations on private lands also in the database, nor the fact that some springs are actually caves (and vice versa). In some cases, (as absurd as this may seem) the feds didn't know if the caves and locations were good, nor if they were actually on federal or private or state land. (And what do you do with karst systems which have named entrances on both public and private land?) And they had no money to devote to unsnarling this mess.
So, someone made an executive decision to remove the geomorphological feature category 'cave,' which solved the problem, saved unallocated taxpayer money, and made the cavers who objected happy all at once. Can't kill a gnat with a tweezers? Use an elephant gun!!
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Post by Azurerana on Dec 30, 2006 19:24:12 GMT -5
I saw the post in the mods group, and nixed the idea of posting it not because it contained cave locations per se, but because it contained locations of caves high in archeological significance (by virtue of being a cave listing by an archeological organization). Every week or so there is a story on NPR about repatriation disputes over antiquities. Usually, these are antiquities obtained in the past, by then legitimate, or maybe by Indiana Jones methods, which some government now wants back in their state collections. I don't always agree that some entity is expected to give back (sans compensation) things which were obtained legally, but which now, because times and laws have changed, are now illegal to possess. Something about ex post facto deals rears its ugly head in these dealings. But I didn't see any point in encouraging further trafficking, black market dealing or otherwise looting of the treasures of Turkey just because someone there thought it was a good idea to put their site locations online.
I've said this until I am blue in the face, and have no breath left: cavers cannot hide cave locations in cave rich areas. It's not rocket science to figure out where karst is, and go looking for caves. Neither do we need to hand people detailed location information in an unregulated arena like the Internet. Cavers should have this statement branded on their foreheads: Cave Locations ≠ Cave Access. If we had more landowners willing to shoot trespassers on sight, there would be no problem with distributing cave location information. It's not knowing where the caves are, it's people who think knowing where they are gives them permission to go there without asking.
I personally have no difficulty saying a cave is in X county, or even near Y town. From a geological standpoint, I want to know that, so I have an idea about the geology, topography, what cave life is likely there. On the other hand, that leaves a casual inquirer with insufficient evidence to drive/hike to the cave without consulting the landowner. On public lands, I have no problem reporting that Z Park, of 7000 acres has 42 known caves. That alone is not going to get a spelunker to any of them. But why not leave some of the thrill of the chase to the person who wants to go there?
The person that died yesterday falling down a pit in Antonia, Missouri (25 miles from my house) was a local. He was out cave hunting, and apparently trespassing on private property. That particular cave is pretty well known. I've never been there, but could easily get to within a quarter section of it just based on what I knew this time yesterday, and with a little wandering based on the news photo on the Net. Did location information lead to that man's death? No. It was lack of caving knowledge (he seems to have broken every vertical caving rule easily available in On Rope) and disregard for private property (I don't know for certain, but seriously doubt he had permission to be cave hunting from the landowner, who obviously knew the cave was there, since it was barb wired and rocked around). If he had known he could come to a cave club, get someone to teach him where caves are, and how to go in them safely, without a bunch of BS, and that it's not a good idea to trespass to gain cave access, he might still be here. (All the metro St. Louis cave grottos have websites and meetings open to the public in public spaces.)
As it was, all having a good cave location would have led to in that case would be he would have found the cave faster. Not a good outcome. Cave Locations ≠ Cave Access Spread the news far and wide, and maybe some day, we can help conquer (or at least minimize) stupidity.
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Post by jonsdigs on Jan 13, 2007 22:26:23 GMT -5
Volunteer archaeologists discover Turkey's caves Saturday, January 13, 2007 VERCİHAN ZİFLİOĞLU ISTANBUL – Turkish Daily News Volunteer archeologists working to preserve Turkey's caves and archeological sites have turned United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) heads with their comprehensive bilingual online inventory, which publicizes information on Turkish archeological sites covering the Stone Age to the Bronze Age. In an effort to create a chronological inventory of Turkey's cultural assets, Oğuz Tanındı, professor of prehistory at Istanbul University's department of Archeology, established The Archeological Settlements of Turkey (TAY) in 1993. Tanındı, now TAY's project coordinator, said that Turkey's vast archeological sites are unprotected and in serious danger. The project carried out by his team of volunteer archeologists intends to reclaim archeological sites, and more recently caves, by drawing up an inventory and sharing this information with the international community and Turkish public. "All cultural assets within the borders of our country are a collective heritage for mankind and we have to claim them in this sense," Tanındı told the Turkish Daily News. "Starting in 2000 our land survey team traveled throughout Anatolia and Thrace covering 92,000 kilometers in five years,"Tanındı said. The volunteers took the coordinates of archeological sites, prepared reports, took photos and filmed hundreds of sites. TAY's newest project has uncovered 2,327 caves throughout Turkey. The findings are available online and can be updated by visitors to the site, as only 467 of those caves have substantial data. In every separate card there is the information of the name, height, width, depth, region, province, town and location of the cave. Research done on caves is particularly important because they are the earliest known human residences. According to Tanındı, researching and publicizing the information can diminish the damage, which is caused by treasure seekers and administration alike. "We should know what exists where. This way we can minimize the destruction," he said. In 2007 research will focus on confirming and updating data on Turkey's Cave Inventory, by taking the caves' coordinates and collecting visual material. Up to now the inventory includes data up to the end of the First Bronze Age and the team plans to tackle the Iron Age next. The TAY Project Web site was selected by UNESCO to appear in its CD-ROM called Millennium Guide to Cultural Resources on the Web. The Web site has been hailed as an example due to its accessibility. Users can participate with their contributions and update the project's archeological sites. The TAY team has published its findings on the Web in English and in Turkish so that foreign researchers can easily access information. The user-friendly site came in handy when the French Genetic Team used TAY's inventories for their work on genetics in Turkey. The project is powered solely by the personal efforts and commitment of its team. According to TAY's Web site its formation, goals, methods and approach to pursuing the documentation of cultural heritage is the first and only example of its kind in Turkey. Tanındı said that it is so difficult to find information, books and the necessary bibliography that often when searching for resources it seems like they are on an archeological expedition pointing to the challenges that researchers face when taking on projects the size of TAY. Article
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